1 Thessalonians Chapter 4
2024 - Learned a LOT in Isaiah 47-49 this morning. Worn out. Reading this straight through...maybe.
2021-2, Though the last verses of 3 seem like a closing, the first vs of 4 starts with "Finally...". So while the subject may be changing some, this is still part of the same outline. Not like that section in 1Co that seems like a whole different letter.
In Chapter 4 Paul first encourages them to continue in the things that he taught them when he was there. He tells them more and more to walk and to please God the way they have been doing. Paul warns them against sexual immorality. Given the praise he gave them in Chapter 1 you wouldn't really expect such a strong warning against something like this. He even tells them not to defraud each other about it, as if some are saying sex is ok as long as you're both Christian, in order to deceive the chaste. Perhaps sex was pretty rampant in Thessalonica, as it is today in the USA. Perhaps this was the central remaining problem with them from the idol worship they came out of, and the freedom they had in Christ. Paul doesn't address it as a grave problem, but as perhaps the one that most needs to be addressed.
2021-2, I think the note above is accurate, but I would add that the "moral atmosphere" concerning unmarried sex might well have been "just like the US today", and it would have justified Paul stating this injunction this way. For the most part, the prevailing morality in the US is that you can sleep with whomever agrees to sleep with you, as long as you are both single. There's just no stigma, no negative, no thought of whether that's ok. We don't even have a problem with people who sleep with someone different about every night. Marriage does not enter into the picture, unless we are sleeping with a person married to someone else. There is still just a little stigma associated with that. But the people I have talked to that are most adamant about NOT sleeping with a married man are divorced women, and their determination is based on the fact that their X slept around while married to them. It is not about the morality of it, but about the hurt they felt when it was done to them. This is the wrong reason. We like to think we are so liberated about sex, so far ahead of previous generations, peoples, eras. But this has always been there. It was happening in the days when Canaan was settled. Religious orgies were common. It was going on in the NT, with the temple of Diana at least, and how many others? Near the fall of Rome fathers were prostituting their daughters because it was "good for them". In the 30's, there were the flappers, in the 60's, free love. Throw in homosexuality, where monogamy is extremely rare, even for short periods of time. (Is this true, or is this just how I think it is?) Those are all just different apples from the same tree. The tree is sexual immorality.
I 4:11, "...aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands..." What wonderful advice. This is so we may, as vs 12 says, "...walk properly toward those who are outside..." Christians need to set an example for those not of the body. That example is of not sticking their noses where they don't belong, of living their own lives without troubling others to take care of them. Christians should be self-sufficient.
Any of these exhortations could be taken singly, and emphasized as the "main thing" about Christianity, and so be turned into something greater than intended. However, I have never heard this one mentioned at all. I think it is just as wrong to avoid saying that Christians should work with their hands to provide for themselves and not depend on outsiders or government charity and so on. Our own efforts should sustain us.
I Thess 4:13 starts a very often cited section of the book:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. [1Th 4:13 ESV] Reading MacArthur's book on gifts, he refers to the use of the phrase "I would not have you ignorant" in 1Corinthians. I had never noticed the very same phrase here. It would be worth comparing the two passages to see if anything "extra" could be extracted.
The Thessalonicans were so expectant of a quick return of Jesus, that they thought they would all still be alive when he came. But it hadn't turned out that way. Some had died. They were worried about what would happen to those who died. Had they just missed heaven because they died too soon? That would be a pretty awful thing to worry about. So Paul explains the rapture to them.
2021-2, Remember that Paul didn't stay here very long. I expect Paul taught them the most important things first, and perhaps that means he hadn't gotten around to the details of eschatology. He'd only hit the high point about them being raptured out, but not about the dead.
This verse:
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:14 ESV]
Pretty clear that the dead in Christ return with him. But...don't the dead in Christ rise first at the rapture? How can they both return with him and rise from their graves? MSB note on this is very unsatisfactory. He leaves out the part where Jesus brings them with him. Only way I see this working is that the dead rise at the rapture, and then he brings them with him at his second coming at the end of Great Tribulation. So...where are they now? If already in heaven, what rises at the rapture? Why come back to retrieve the bodies if the souls are already in heaven? MSB just ignores this question.
2023 - At the rapture, soul and body are reunited, and changed. We get our new bodies, as Christ's resurrected body, and perhaps as Adam and Eve had originally. We will live in heaven forever not as disembodied spirits, but as flesh and blood. So he brings our spirits with him when he comes. The dead get raised and reunited, and then those still living get changed.
2023 -There is nothing here that gives me a clue about the timing of the rapture. I can see it being mid-trib, and these days, I can even see it at Christ's return at the end of great trib. Other places tell me different, but you can make that case here.
2021-2, Looking at this verse again, with what I think I've learned in the last year:
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:14 ESV]
God will bring...That is an interesting choice of words. Might it better be read "God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus"? In fact, that is exactly how the NASB95 translates it. I think it helps a lot with understanding the verse. It reads similarly, but rearranged a little in KJV:
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:14 ESV]
(2023 note: Iesous is there twice in the Greek. Jesus died...and the Jesus again at the end, however you translate it.)
The ESV seems to have reshaped the verse to say that it is through Jesus that God will accomplish this resurrection, rather than that those who are resurrected will be dead in Christ. They must be getting this from the first part of the verse - and indeed it does fit better with that. Because Christ died and rose again, God will use that accomplishment, that "plan", and bring the dead with him. Ahh...there it is.
As the ESV puts it, God may be bringing ALL the dead saints, not just those "in Christ". We have discussed that phrase extensively and tied it to the Holy Spirit and Pentecost. ESV does not want to restrict this resurrection to NT saints, but wants to include ALL saints. So they go with "through Jesus" instead of "in Jesus".
The NIV takes a direction completely different than KJV or ESV with this translation:
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. [1Th 4:14 NIV]
"with" Jesus. God is coming and Jesus with him, and they will also bring those who are dead "in him"? Just looking at the other translations, NIV has to have added a word or two. You can't do a one-to-one "check" on translations like the NIV because they are translating phrases, and meanings, NOT the very words. So they grant themselves some extra liberty. I can't think of a verse anywhere that says God and Jesus are coming back together at the same time. And I am not willing to try and build a new eschatology based on this one translation, that I put far down the reliability chain anyway. I will consider the fact that we have nothing to tell us that God is coming down to earth - indeed he could not, while it is in it's corrupt state - until the old has passed away. That is after the Millennial, after that last battle, and I believe after the GWT. So that's pretty late for when those who have died throughout all history will come back. But that may be when the OT saints finally come back. We don't really have any other good place for them to return...unless we jump on the ESV train, and bring them back at the rapture...partially back that is.
Here is yet another way to look at it in the NLT:
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. [1Th 4:14 NLT]
This one is interesting.
You can always tell when a verse is "difficult" by how far the various versions go in trying to translate it!
So moving on, the word in question - whether through or in Jesus - is just a little tiny three letter Greek word, "dia". It is a preposition. It appears 646 times in the KJV, Strong's G1223. 241 of the 646 times, it is translated "by". And I don't find any translations that render it that way. It is translated "through" 88x, and the ESV went there. They are the only ones, and we discussed why they may have done that. But seeing this now, it could be that the ESV went that way because that is the "least disruptive" way to translate the word!
We still have to watch our perspective though. All the translations agree that this is something God is going to accomplish - this bringing of the saints. He may do it "by" Jesus, or "through" Jesus. These two tell us the means of God's work in this matter. But if we change it to "in Jesus", and move it to the end, then we say the verse is about "who" God is bringing, not how He will do it. These are so very different in meaning. And I see no way to resolve which one it is! Why should this verse be so difficult? Is it because God wants the details of the rapture to be shrouded in mystery? Something reserved for revelation only on that very day when it happens?
Here is one more item that favors the ESV translation: that word dia is NEVER translated "in", anywhere in the KJV. So moving things around and saying that it is those "in Christ" that is the critical factor in the translation makes the use of "in" a completely unique interpretation in the Bible. And that does stretch things way on out there.
So my conclusion is that the verse is about "how" God will accomplish bringing back those previously dead, and not about their position in relation to the Son. ESV is the right read. So what does ESV mean?
When Christ arose, he conquered death, once and for all, never to die again. It is Jesus who has power over death. Therefore, if you want to raise the dead, you look to the one who has the power to do that. It is only through that person that has the power that this can be accomplished. God wants it done, so it will be done, and He will do it through the person of the Son. This:
Even so, God through Jesus, will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep.
If you do it this way, then those who have died before the rapture will return with Jesus at the rapture, according to the work and will of God. There is no restriction, expressed or implied, on who these dead will included. That is left open. It could go all the way to Adam. It could be just the saints since Pentecost.
Note also that this still allows for the interpretation that it is the spirits of those who have died that come back with Christ, and their physical bodies, dead and buried, are going to rise and join their spirits in the air. This is the only possible way that to be dead is to be with Christ, and yet have a rapture where the old mortal body is put off and we put on an immortal body. A body that to this point, only Christ has ever worn. This is a unique thing that comes into existence in a big way here. We will truly be "like Christ" after the rapture. And if he is in heaven with this kind of body, then the raptured may surely also go into heaven with Jesus.
I cannot go on without putting in the MSB note here, which DOES restrict those caught up at this time. Going to just type it in here:
"As Jesus died and rose, so also will those who die believing in Him rise again so they can be taken to heaven with the Lord (see notes on Jn 14:1-3;, 1Co 15:51-58). These texts describe the rapture of the church, which takes place when Jesus comes to collect His redeemed and take them back to heaven. Those who have died before that time (called "those who have fallen asleep") will be gathered and taken back to heaven with the Lord."
MSB is definitely saying this is ONLY the church that will be raptured. Maybe so. These other passages that MSB quotes need to be studied out also, and perhaps all three together will clarify what is meant. I just don't see how you can restrict the rapture to the church based solely on this verse.
Now. Moving on!
2022 - I suspect that Paul is talking here about the second coming.
No, that's not it, as vss 16-18 make so very clear. Paul is speaking about the rapture in this chapter. He calls the rapture "This means that when the rapture occurs, it is not only Christ who will be there in the clouds to meet us, but those who have gone before. We don't wait until heaven to see those who died before us, we see them there in the sky in our new bodies.
What if I read it like this:
"14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep. Now it is saying that because of what Jesus did in rising from the grave, through the power given Jesus by God, God - who ultimately made this plan - will have those who die before "this time" to return with Jesus (when Jesus returns). What is still not clear is whether those returning are all the saints or the church age saints. I tend to think church age saints.
2022 next day - If we think of the rapture as the time when our bodies will be "remade" into the likeness of Christ and when those new bodies - which are just dust now with no use to anyone - will be united with our Souls/Spirits which went immediately to heaven when we died, then this makes some sense. If the rapture is the time when body and soul are reunited, then it makes sense that our spirits would return and wait in the clouds for our new bodies to come up from the earth - possibly to fight their way through the demonic armies trying to prevent them from doing so - and some kind of miraculous union occur there in the clouds. Then we would return with Christ to heaven, and there await the marriage supper, followed by the Millennial reign on earth, followed by the new heaven and the new earth for eternity.
As Paul explains this, vs 15: 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [1Th 4:15 ESV] by a word seems to indicate that this is a revelation to Paul directly from God, and has it's source from Him. Paul didn't get this from reading OT scrolls. This is inspired by God through Paul.
2021-2, The MSB note on this single verse is very, very long. There is much discussion, many x-refs. Alternatives are considered before reaching a conclusion. It is an extensive note. I am not going to type it here because it is very long, but I would consider no study of this passage complete without reading that note. It would take an hour easily just to puzzle out what this long note is saying...and then you'd still have to decide if you agreed or not! The main thing about the note is what is meant by that little phrase "by a word from the Lord". The short version is that MSB believes it means this was a revelation to Paul, never before seen, so not to be found in previous scriptures. This was "new" information to the Thessalonians.
Jesus returns, there's a shout from an archangel, and a trumpet. These will be the visual and auditory clues that the rapture is here. Doesn't seem to me that it will be any secret to anyone at all. It will likely scare some who have held out for one reason or another to finally repent. This is where those saved during the tribulation will come from. The ones who believe the evidence of their own eyes that a LOT of people went missing coincident with this supernatural event. The dead rise first, then those who are still alive will join them, and be with Jesus from that point on. No separation from Christ for the dead in Christ or the living saved following the rapture.
(I think the paragraph above has some problems. Note vs 17 - caught up in the clouds. This implies the rapture. Jesus doesn't come all the way to earth at that time, but the dead in Christ meet him in the air. And it will not necessarily be secret, and that makes me wonder if the sixth seal is indeed the place it will happen - during an earthquake so the departure can be hidden. So I still don't get it. Time is short this morning...moving on.)
2021-2, this last section is about vs 16, which goes into an extraordinarily detailed account of this event that Paul is revealing for the first time. Here's the whole verse:
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [1Th 4:16 ESV]
The word translated "Lord" is "kyrios", which is the Greek word used for God, the Messiah. So it is Jesus that will descend. What command is it that he will give? Rise, my children, and receive the place prepared for you? Rise, and receive the promised reward? Or just simply "Time to come home". Lots of sounds. A cry, a voice, a trumpet.
So much is here, and I am so short of time...Almost two hours on this chapter already....
I don't see any way to "mesh" this with the breaking of the Sixth Seal, which I have long thought is when the rapture will occur. If that is so, then the cry, the voice, and the trumpet will be separate from anything in Rev. 6:12-17, which describes the events of the Sixth Seal. These three would be in addition to those.
2024 - And why should they not be "in addition"? What would be wrong with seeing these verses in 1Thess as a further description of the rapture? Ahh...It just occurred to me...Perhaps the description in Rev at the Sixth Seal is what things will look like from Heaven's perspective. But here in 1Thess, we are getting what things will be like for all those in Christ. Perhaps it is those who died saved and those still living when he comes who will hear that command from the returning Christ to "Rise!", and then the shout of the archangel - Michael - setting his forces to work clearing the demons who will oppose this resurrection and the path it must take in the air (the Prince of the Power of the Air will after all be very active and powerful on earth at this time), and then the trumpet - sounded in victory as those whom Christ came to gather assemble with him, and return in body AND spirit to heaven with him. YES! That is what these things are about!!!
He will descend "from heaven", but it does not say "to earth". So it is reasonable to assume, in vs 17, that when we meet him "in the clouds", it means that's as close as he gets to the earth. There will be clouds that day.
This is the whole verse:
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. [1Th 4:17 ESV]
"always with the Lord". Could read into this that when he comes with his armies, the church - or whomever is resurrected here - will come with him also. Otherwise we would not be "with" him. "Kyrios" is the word for Lord both times in this verse.
And I am just done. Stopping here, because I have three chapters of Isaiah to read also.
2022 - These last verses - 16-18 - do not seem at all like the second coming, but like the rapture. So...
2022 - Perhaps by "so we will always be" means this transformation of our bodies and the reuniting of spirit and body will be the last transformation. This is our eternal form. It could just mean that.