Chapter 50
2024 - I note that these prophecies have no timestamp. We seem to be back to "the collected prophecies" of Jeremiah re Babylon. I also note that I am NOT rushed this time through.
2020 - I am out of time. Today is Sunday. Going to have to go through this one too fast, though this one is of great interest to me. I suspect I could really get bogged down here if I had the time. So, I got a nosebleed at church (2020) and had to come home. I am spending the time on today's reading in Jeremiah. Got a lot more notes on 49...so I am once again short on time for 50. Will use what I have though!
MSB says both 50 and 51 are going to be about Babylon.
MSB relevant references: Is 13:1-14:23; Hab 2:6-17.
MSB further says that this judgement focuses on Media Persia's conquest of Babylon in 539 BC. Quoting this part: "The prediction of elements of violent overthrow, which was not the case when Cyrus conquered since there was not even a battle, points to greater fulfillment near the coming of Messiah, in glory when events more fully satisfy the description (Rev 17, 18)."
2025 - This verse: 1 The word that the LORD spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by Jeremiah the prophet: [Jer 50:1 ESV]. So Jeremiah is telling us that this prophecy is about Babylon in the land of the Chaldeans. The actual physical place that those who heard the prophecy would have presumed. The Bible clearly says it is about THAT Babylon. MSB's basis for thinking it is near far is that there was no violent overthrow of Babylon in those days - it went out with a whimper. Therefore, for the Bible to be correct, according to MSB, we have to add this "second fulfillment" somewhere still future - the end times Babylon. BUT, if we do that, then Babylon in Iraq must rise to power again. Revelation does not tell us it is about a specific city, but if we make Jer 50 a near/far, then we force ourselves into that interpretation. I prefer to believe that we don't know everything there is to know about the 539 BC fall of Babylon. I expect there may have been a lot more violence than we know about. I'd rather even say that the violence was in the Spiritual realm as the Prince of Persia overcame the Prince of Babylon. I most definitely do not like saying that "Since this prophecy is historically inaccurate, even thought it clearly says it was about that conquest, then the Bible is wrong about that, and so since the Bible is not wrong, it must have been talking about a future fulfillment." Yeah...I think it was about 539 BC, and we don't know all there is to know about that conquest. I like that MUCH better.
Here is a short description of how the city was actually conquered by Cyrus:
In a military engagement known as the Battle of Opis, Cyrus knew that they could never break the walls. So he waited until the Babylonians had a national feast where they would be unsuspecting of an attack. There was one entrance in through the Euphrates River, where someone would have to hold their breath and swim until the other side, virtually impossible. Cyrus had his men divert the water until the water was only at hip depth. Cyrus took control of the city with virtually no fight. Babylon then came under the control of the Persian Empire.
So a bit like the Trojan horse. The invaders were inside the walls, likely in the dark, with everyone asleep and/or drunk from the feast, and they probably opened the front gates and let the whole army in before anyone could even react.
Babylon! vs 2b:
2 "Declare among the nations and proclaim, set up a banner and proclaim, conceal it not, and say: 'Babylon is taken, Bel is put to shame, Merodach is dismayed. Her images are put to shame, her idols are dismayed.' [Jer 50:2 ESV]
2022 - Note once again that it is the gods of Babylon that are put to shame. They cannot stand before the living God.
2024 - Babylon is "taken" is what Jeremiah says. As in captured by a conquering army. That is not what Revelation says. These verses:
9 And behold, here come riders, horsemen in pairs!" And he answered, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon; and all the carved images of her gods he has shattered to the ground." [Isa 21:9 ESV]
8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality." [Rev 14:8 ESV]
2 And he called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast. [Rev 18:2 ESV]
It seems unlikely, in this day and age, that a Babylon would have "images of her gods". Idol worship is pretty much gone in all the world these days. In the Middle East, where Islam rules, idols are detested. This is why Isis destroyed what Saddam had rebuilt of Babylon. They see it as blasphemy. Based on this, I would suggest that Isaiah, when using the term fallen, is talking about Cyrus. The Medo-Persians, even in a bloodless conquest, would evict the gods of Babylon and install their own. Let's make that a sort of "rule of interpretation". If Idols are involved, it is about Cyrus. Second rule, if Babylon is "taken" it is about Cyrus. If Babylon is "fallen", and her gods are not mentioned, it is about the 70th week. I have also noticed in Jeremiah that when we get what I have come to call "wrap-around" prophecies, that reference something that began in the OT, and is only completed in the 70th week, that we have been able to identify pretty clearly the end of part one and the beginning of part two. We do not jump back and forth in alternating verses. So we will also try and use that principle of interpretation here. And I wonder if we can also make use of the contrast between "Babylon" and "Babylon the Great"?
2024 - So. Based on our new rules, I see that Isaiah gave idolatry as the reason for Babylon's fall, while in Revelation, sexual immorality is the "crime mentioned". Further, in Isa 21, there is another verse that tells Elam and Media to attack.
2024 - Here is a good map, found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes#/media/File:Median_Empire.png:
Susa was like the "residence" of the King of Babylon. Susa is mentioned multiple times in Esther, which would have been before the return. Ahasuerus was in the Citadel, at Susa. Here is a note about him from Wikipedia:
"Ahasuerus is a name applied in the Hebrew Bible to three rulers of Ancient Persia and to a Babylonian official in the Book of Tobit. It is a transliteration of either Xerxes I or Artaxerxes; both are names of multiple Achaemenid dynasty Persian kings." So we are right that the Susa in Esther is about the time before Babylon under the Medes fell to Cyrus, King of Persia.
2024 - And this begs the question about Jer 49 beginning in vs 34 about Elam. Perhaps when Cyrus marched from Persia on Babylon, he captured Elam on the way. So God put Cyrus - his man - on the throne in Elam first. Then Cyrus and the Elamite archers crossed into Babylonia to the north of Babylon coming down through Opis - with a diversionary force coming at them direct from Susa on the main road, and stopped the water coming down the Euphrates - which would have to have been done at a spot north of Babylon - and the captured the city without a battle.
2024 - This verse: 3 "For out of the north a nation has come up against her, which shall make her land a desolation, and none shall dwell in it; both man and beast shall flee away. [Jer 50:3 ESV]. Rev 18.2 says that Babylon will be inhabited by unclean birds and beasts. Jer 50.3 says nothing will live there. So...Revelation is talking about Babylon as a world government falling, and Jeremiah is talking about a geographic Babylon?
Conquered from the north. This should be provable. Babylon did fall, and Babylon will fall. There is that whole thing about whether the Babylon of Revelation is a city or is a system. She will become desolate. This is Iraq now, out in the desert. Isis tore down what little was left of her.
2024 - Verse four seems to "separate" itself from 1-3, in that it starts with "In those days and in that time..." So perhaps this is the division. 1-3 are about the fall of Babylon to Cyrus, and now beginning in four, we are in the 70th week? This pretty much has to be the case because we see both Israel and Judah coming together. That's the northern and the southern 2, and as I write this, the 10 are still gone forever. So this has to be about a time still future to us. Vs 6 certainly seems to describe the northern 10. Vs 7 is about rampant anti-Semitism. It is ok to stomp on the Jews because they have forgotten their God, and he has left them helpless. It is sort of "God's will" that bad things are done to them by all nations. Now think of that in terms of today! Is God, through this Gaza thing and the unleashing of worldwide calls for genocide of Israel just another of the ongoing "corrections" by which God is trying to bring them back to him?
vs 4 starts a prophecy of the Millennial, when Judah shall seek the Lord with weeping. This verse:
7 All who found them have devoured them, and their enemies have said, 'We are not guilty, for they have sinned against the LORD, their habitation of righteousness, the LORD, the hope of their fathers.' [Jer 50:7 ESV]
Here is the history of Israel in one verse. At least this is true since 586 BC, and even more so after 70 AD.
In vs 8 the people are urged to flee from Babylon. This might be about the return under Nehemiah. Maybe they were urged to go home rather than remain in Babylon, which was going to fall.
2024 - The interpretation that the Jews were urged to flee before Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians doesn't really fly. They were all slaves at the time. Cyrus frees them. So the prophecy that tells them to flee must be about a different time, a different conquest, and very possibly a different city - only called Babylon because of political/financial/"power" similarity. But it is certain that the Jews in Babylon 70 years after 586 BC could not have just up and left. So. Somehow, in the future Babylon of Revelation, the city will have Jews, not a few, living there. They are urged to leave not just the city but the whole land of the Chaldeans. (I have no idea how male goats before the flock behave. Are they also to lead out the weak, the young and old, and the oppressed at that time? Is that what male goats do?) If we are in the future, Babylon will again be attacked from the north by many great nations. It is just difficult to see this description as being about the fall of a world economic system. It seems much better to interpret this as a prophecy of the fall of a large, inhabited city. Perhaps it is the capitol city of the world government, but it seems obviously to be a place and not a concept. And if we say this is the same place as in Revelation, which I think we must because of the switch in vs 4, the Revelation is about the fall of a place also.
Just reading from here in 2020. No time for more notes.
vs 12b:
12 ...Behold, she shall be the last of the nations, a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert. [Jer 50:12 ESV].
2024 - That sounds like the 70th week doesn't it? Perhaps she will be the last to fall to the iron rod of the King of Zion? Vs 13 seems to bear that out also:
13 Because of the wrath of the LORD she shall not be inhabited but shall be an utter desolation; everyone who passes by Babylon shall be appalled, and hiss because of all her wounds. [Jer 50:13 ESV]. This is just not what happened in the days of Cyrus. Babylon was occupied for a long time after that. I found these in Wikipedia:
Under Alexander, Babylon again flourished as a center of learning and commerce. However, following Alexander's death in 323 BC in the palace of Nebuchadnezzar, his empire was divided amongst his generals, the Diadochi, and decades of fighting soon began. The constant turmoil virtually emptied the city of Babylon. A tablet dated 275 BC states that the inhabitants of Babylon were transported to Seleucia, where a palace and a temple (Esagila) were built. With this deportation, Babylon became insignificant as a city, although more than a century later, sacrifices were still performed in its old sanctuary.[57]. I did not know that Alexander died in Babylon. And notice the description - turmoil virtually emptied the city. And compare that description to this verse: 16 ...because of the sword of the oppressor, every one shall turn to his own people, and every one shall flee to his own land. [Jer 50:16b ESV]. that certainly fits...and this is all before the Age of the Gentiles, and so could well be included in Jeremiah's prophecies about times before the 70th week. Sure is hard to pin it down. I just go back and forth.
Ibn Hawqal (10th century) and the Arab scholar, al-Qazwini (13th century), describe Babylon (Babil) as a small village. So by the 1100's, the place was tiny, not a speck of what it once was. So it seems the place declined gradually...but always was in decline.
These verses:
17 "Israel is a hunted sheep driven away by lions. First the king of Assyria devoured him, and now at last Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has gnawed his bones. ... 19 I will restore Israel to his pasture, and he shall feed on Carmel and in Bashan, and his desire shall be satisfied on the hills of Ephraim and in Gilead. 20 In those days and in that time, declares the LORD, iniquity shall be sought in Israel, and there shall be none, and sin in Judah, and none shall be found, for I will pardon those whom I leave as a remnant. [Jer 50:17, 19-20 ESV]
2024 - In today's reading, the same day that I read Jer 50, I also read Heb 8, and noticed this connecting verse: 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." [Heb 8:12 ESV]. Whomever wrote Hebrews seems to be quoting Jeremiah at least in part. They are both talking about the same point in time, both talking about the New Covenant. As Gentiles, we are benefactors from Israel's rejection of this covenant, but these promises were made to Jews! I believe we of the church age are still only partially "enlightened" and that complete fulfillment of this prophecy is reserved for the Jews in the Millennial. That's just what I think.
Interesting that this prophesies about the near fall of Babylon, and then the Millennial return of Israel to the land. Or will there be a second Babylon that is the one in Revelation?
2024 - Or maybe not...I do note, for the first time, that beginning in vs 17, we are talking about Israel. About the 10 tribes taken by Assyria. We know this is "real" because we saw back in vs 4 that BOTH were discussed, and reunited. Vss 17-18 seem to be saying that Babylon is being punished for the same reason Assyria was - because of what they had done to Israel, as the northern 10. Vs 20 confirms again that Israel and Judah are both in mind, and both the subject of similar prophecies.
2025 - This comparison between the fall of Assyria and the fall of Babylon, in vs. 18, again pushes us to believe that this prophecy is about the Babylon of Jeremiah's time, not some still future Babylon. How can you make sense of this unless it is about then Babylon? How weak does the interpretation seem if we say that if this is about "then Babylon" then the Bible is wrong because it didn't fall that way, so it must be ALSO about a different Babylon? There is no basis for that! That is adding words to the Bible.!
2024 - We have this phrase again here:
20 In those days and in that time, declares the LORD, iniquity shall be sought in Israel, and there shall be none, and sin in Judah, and none shall be found, for I will pardon those whom I leave as a remnant. [Jer 50:20 ESV]. So...what if the first time we saw this, we were skipping ahead from Jeremiah's time to the fall of Babylon to Cyrus, and NOW, in vs 20, we are skipping ahead again to the 70th week? I don't know that I've ever seen that kind of thing happen before - with two skips, but I also have never looked for it. Just not seeing a way to interpret all these so that they are consistent. Surely there has never been a time when there was "no iniquity" in Judah??? And we saw a pretty firm indicator that the previous prophecy, discussed above, was also still future. I'm going to stick with those. Make them firmly in the future.
2025 - No. God sent Israel to Babylon for 70 years only as punishment for not honoring the Sabbaths. And then he forgave all that and through Cyrus, he sent them home. There HAS been a time when the remnant was pardoned. He promised them from the start that after their sentence in Babylon was served, they would come home!
2025 - This one also: 28 "A voice! They flee and escape from the land of Babylon, to declare in Zion the vengeance of the LORD our God, vengeance for his temple. [Jer 50:28 ESV]. Vengeance for his temple? It was Neb that looted the temple, and it was Nebuzaradan that burned it down. This is the Babylon that will be destroyed. Deal with the details some other way, but it is not near/far.
2024 - Reading on through from here. There is just so much to unravel in this very long chapter!
Revelation, Babylon is fallen. The last...wrath mentioned. This has to be about end times. A real city. How could it e anywhere but current Babylon? It must also rise again. But then this:
34 Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name. He will surely plead their cause, that he may give rest to the earth, but unrest to the inhabitants of Babylon. [Jer 50:34 ESV] Sure sounds like end times.
The reason for her fall:
38 A drought against her waters, that they may be dried up! For it is a land of images, and they are mad over idols. [Jer 50:38 ESV]
Oh my...Looking at the description above of how Cyrus got in gives this verse a very profound meaning. Was Jeremiah still alive in 539 BC? Found a note that says Jeremiah died in 570 BC, 30 years before Babylon fell. AND, he died in Egypt remember, because that is where the surviving Judeans took him, against his will!
2024 - And here, it is all happening because of Babylonian idolatry, and we decided above that this steers us to the conquest by Cyrus and not the 70th week. So. We know the little "system" I worked above does not work.
vs 39 says she will never again have people. Not for all generations. That either means after the destruction in Revelation, or that I am wrong about the rebuilding. Uninhabited for all generations sounds like no rebuilding. In which case...the Babylon of Revelation may be more about system than city after all. See exactly what did occur when historic Babylon met her end...
There is an MSB note on vs 40: "As when God overthrew Sodom. Cf 50:1. What befell Sodom (cf. Ge 19) was sudden and total destruction, not like the Media Persia takeover, but like an example for the future devastation that will overtake the final Babylon (cf Rev 17, 18)." I believe the overthrow by Cyrus was sudden. It happened probably overnight and "without a shot being fired" essentially. But the city was not destroyed, perhaps barely damaged. So it will fall again, suddenly, completely, and be gone forever. BUT, it is pretty much completely gone today. There is nothing much at all where Babylon once stood. Saddam Hussein was trying to rebuild it, and those ruins are all that remain. For example, here is a photo of the ruins of Babylon from 1932:
This photo, and the prophecy of desolation, lead me to believe that the Babylon of Revelation is a different place geographically. It is not ancient Babylon rebuilt on the same real estate. It will be a place like Babylon, a long-enduring world power, the fear of all nations, the source of world power. Could be it is the capitol city of the Antichrist, the dragon, the beast, and the image. It could be in Iran. The Antichrist could rule from there for the first 3 1/2 years and then take up residence in the new Temple - either in Jerusalem if I am wrong or in Ezekiel's Temple to the north of Jerusalem. He could be the "prince" who owns the land in the center of the returned 12 tribes. But...this is a temple, not a great city. From the Temple you can see a great city, far away. Jerusalem I think, far to the South. So maybe the seat of power is somewhere in Iran, but the residence is in Israel. Maybe that is how it will go.
Then at the end of the chapter the phrase "Who will summon me" is repeated. vs 46 surely looks like the Fall of Babylon in Revelation...
46 At the sound of the capture of Babylon the earth shall tremble, and her cry shall be heard among the nations." [Jer 50:46 ESV]
And yet, Jeremiah used this same phrase to describe the fall of Edom. The very same phrase. Hard to see how they could be equated.
Lots of MSB notes on this chapter. Go back and read them also!
Another MSB note says the "lion" in 50:41-46 is Cyrus.
Archers are repeatedly mentioned as the means of the destruction of Babylon. Was this true historically? Does Revelation mention it? There is an MSB note on 49:35 saying "Elamites were famous archers". The note on vss 34-39 says Elam was subjugated by Babylon in 596 BC. Later, Cyrus of Persia conquered Elam and incorporated Elamites into the Persian forces that conquered Babylon in 539 BC. So maybe these are the archers so repeatedly referred to, and the source of these archers. (Except there was no real battle in 539 BC, so little need for archers.)
2025 - No real battle so far as the historical record contains. For all we know the archers from Elam spent all morning randomly firing arrows into the city, after the King and his court has all been butchered in their sleep from the infiltration through the river's inlet. I am sticking with what the Bible says about the Babylon of Jeremiah's time. What the Bible says happened indeed did happen to THAT Babylon. We are also given all the info we need on the future Babylon - a completely different place the fall of which the Bible does not describe - only the aftermath of that fall.