Chapter 16

2021-2, Reading on Sunday morning, so time shorter than I'd like.  Read 3 chapters of 2 Chron first.

Yesterday, read 15, about the vine, and about Christians being hated. 

This chapter starts with this:

1 "I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. [Jhn 16:1 ESV]

More controversy.  I think we have to read "falling away" in the context of these two previous verses:

10 Jesus said to him, "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you." [Jhn 13:10 ESV]

3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. [Jhn 15:3 ESV]

Twice, Jesus has pronounced them clean.  Are we really to believe that even after that, they could lose their salvation?  If so, then fruitful branches can also die.  I didn't get that idea from that analogy.  Those branches were never really attached.

2021-2, Well yes, they were really attached, and they withered and they got thrown away.  That is about Israel, and those who keep to the Law, and so do not produce instead of following Jesus and producing fruit.  I think verse 1 means Jesus is directing the falling away remark to the apostles themselves.  They are about to be tried mightily.  They are about to shame themselves by abandoning Jesus in the garden.  The religious elite are going to search for them and try to kill them too.  They will be afraid, and it will take tremendous courage to maintain their faith, to confess their faith, and beyond that to preach their faith to save others also.  It would be oh so easy to just walk away from it.  To just stop and deny.  THAT kind of falling away.  In NASB, they translate it "stumbling" not "falling away".  The transliteration is "skandalizo".  It is used 30 times in the KJV, and 28 of those it is translated "offend".  To "skandalizo" is to cause to stumble, to be misled.  But it is causing that to happen.  So Jesus told them all these things to NOT cause them to stumble....no, that's not right.  Here is one of the definitions:  to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey.  It is aorist passive subjunctive.  Doesn't that just scream "can't do it in English"!?  Here is one of the statements given about the aorist:  There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense.  So you can't say it correctly in English. 

2024 - This verse:

1 "I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. [Jhn 16:1 ESV] is also this verse:

1 "These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. [Jhn 16:1 NASB95]

NASB is, in my opinion, a much better interpretation here, especially in light of those two previous verses.  Translated as the NASB95 does it makes it clear that we are talking about the kind of stumbling that Peter will do in the early hours of the next morning.  It is about lapses, from which they can recover, not about permanent falls.  Jesus knows what these men are going to have to endure, what they will go through, and he knows how difficult it will be for them.  He knows because, like them, he is just about to go through many of the very same things.  It will be extremely tempting for them to renounce Jesus in order to save themselves from their immediate circumstances.  That's all this means.

There is a ton more to puzzle through here.  As this is Sunday morning, I just don't have the time.  I have already spent over 40 minutes and I'm on verse 1.  Got to just read it through now....

But one more thing....Look at how vs 4 ends.  This is all to help them when their hour comes.  To give them comfort as death draws near.  How does that tie with falling away or stumbling?  Is Jesus saying this is so they will hold fast to their testimony under torture all the way to the point of death.  To give them strength as they try to remain faithful as they are tortured to deny him at the end?  Does that make all this fit????  But...it says when "their" hour comes.  Hmm...Making progress but not quite there yet.

2022 - 1-4a go with the end of the previous chapter.  Jesus is telling them that the world is going to hate them.  But the Spirit will come - the Helper - and people will know in their hearts that Jesus is the one way, the only way.  The Spirit will "preach" that to all.  And the apostles - the 11 - are also going to preach Jesus in the world.  This is what draws the hatred.  Those who hate do so because they will not give themselves over to God and His teaching.  The Spirit will convict them of this attitude, and they will know their sin is great and their future is hell.  Instead of repentance they will decide on resentment, not only of the teaching of the Spirit but of all who decide to accept that preaching.  These people will truly hate.  These are the people we are seeing in this country today.  True haters, and hate is an emotion that requires no logic, no rationality to support it.  But here is the other side of it...the haters cannot win.  And this just makes them hate more.  The Spirit tells them they cannot win. 

2024 - I don't think this is about us today, except as a generality.  I mean, "we" today, are not likely to be thrown out of any synagogue.  He is obviously speaking to Jews.  Do we think this is meant for all Jews or the 11 Jews looking at him as he says these words?  It is really not that hard.  This continues the "pep talk" he has been giving them.  He is telling the 11 that the Jewish establishment of that day - that decade, that century, is going to oppose them to the point of trying to murder them, just as that same established authority conspired to have Jesus killed. 

Jesus' point to the apostles here is to warn them of the reception they will get.  For them, they are the source of the best news ever to reach mankind.  They do what they do out of love for others, even the worst of people.  Why wouldn't you expect to be welcomed with open arms for bringing such wonderful news?  But that is not what will happen.  In these first verses, Jesus tells them that not only will they be hated to the point of murder, but those who try and kill them will believe they are doing God a favor!  They will believe a greater reward awaits them BECAUSE they have murdered.  Then Jesus makes it plain that the murderers will NOT be rewarded, but are doomed to hell.  And again, Jesus is telling them that his prophecy of these events confirms that he is a prophet of God.  Only true prophets foretell.

Is there a FB post here - focused on that second paragraph, contrasting how those who speak the gospel characterize their work with how they are perceived in the world?  Will need a vs from Chapter 16...

2024 - Here is an interesting connection, an interesting situation that Jesus speaks to them about:

2 "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. [Jhn 16:2 NASB95].  We can read this as "here's what they'll try to do to you, but an hour is coming for all of them.  And then we connect that to this verse:

4 "But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you. [Jhn 16:4 NASB95]

How are we to see "their hour"?  Jesus wants the 11 to take heart in their darkest, most painful hours by remembering that Jesus told them things were going to get really bad.  They need not doubt in this hour that are doing the work of God, even though they are tortured to death for not renouncing Jesus.  Remember how the Baptist sent messengers to Jesus to see if he was really the one.  John, in prison, was having doubts about whether he had done the right thing, whether he had recognized the Lamb.  The 11 would know of this, and understand that though they might meet the same fate as John, they should persevere, because that hour that was coming to them had been prophesied by Jesus.

Beginning in vs 4b, Jesus talks more about the Holy Spirit.  He says it good for him to go, because then the Spirit will come.  Hmm...Jesus physical body limited him to some degree.  The Spirit is not so limited.   Jesus could be one place.  The Spirit, because it is spirit, has no such limitations.  Even angels are limited to one place, but God - the pure original Spirit - is unlimited.  That is only true of Him.

2022 - Why does Jesus have to go BEFORE the Spirit comes?  It is almost like their presence is mutually exclusive, but this cannot be the case.  The Spirit descended from heaven as a dove at Jesus Baptism, and the Father spoke from heaven.  So there is no restriction on both the Son and the Spirit being present on earth at the same time.  Note that it doesn't say the Spirit cannot come, but that he WILL NOT come.  MSB does not shine any light on the possible reasons for this.

Perhaps as long as the light of the world is in the world, all eyes, all commitment, all wisdom should be about the light.  Even when the Spirit does come, He will bear witness of Jesus.  We saw that in so many words at the end of Chapter 15.  The Spirit comes to testify as to the Son...but that is just not needed while the Son is present!  Perhaps that is why vs 5 starts with "I am going...".

2023 - There is nothing in MSB about the "exclusionary presence" of Jesus wrt the Holy Spirit.

2022 - Here is the verse:

7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. [Jhn 16:7 ESV].

Note also that Jesus says HE will send the Spirit.  As Jesus submits himself to the Father, the Spirit submits to Jesus.  Jesus said the same thing back in vs 26.

The work of the Spirit:

8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. [Jhn 16:8-11 ESV]

At least three sermons there.  Maybe a whole month's worth.  So much contained here. 

Short version of MSB notes:

In 9, sin is singular.  The sin talked about is that of not believing in Jesus.  This is the only sin that damns.  Here is a proof text for unlimited atonement.  All sins paid for by Jesus' death except for denying Him.

In 10, self-righteous religion is in view.  God is not about following the rules and earning a place in heaven, but about loving and worshiping Him.

In 11, the world's "judgment" is unsound as evidenced by their sentencing Jesus to the cross.  

Convicts us of unbelief,  convinces us we cannot help ourselves, and corrects our reliance on earthly justice. 

Um hmm...I thought that would preach.

2022 - Based on the MSB notes, this verse sort of resolves the whole controversy over whether the atonement is limited or not.  It is unlimited in efficacy but limited in application.  The cross does not remove any sin unless and until the sin of rejecting Christ is overcome.  That happens only at salvation.  Only those whom God elects are saved.  If Christ is rejected, then a person will stand before God at the GWT and be accused of each and every sin.  And the weight of the sins will demand a sentence of eternity in hell, separated from God.  But for the saved, the question will not be about heaven or hell, but about rewards.  The heaven part will already be a done deal at the rapture.  For those who lived and died before the Law, there is no real sin, as God had not defined it.  They are judged only on whether they had faith.  Those born after the Law came...will be judged both by whether they had faith, and by whether they obeyed the Law.  The Law will surely convict all these, because no one can obey the whole Law.  But faith can overcome this failure, in the same way it was the key before the Law came. 

2022 - This verse:

14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. [Jhn 16:14 ESV].  The Spirit is to glorify the Son.  The Son glorifies the Father.  How was that verse worded though?  That's not really what it says is it...:

28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again." [Jhn 12:28 ESV].  Even so, I think there are verses where Jesus says his purpose is to glorify the Father.

Hmm...there is a lot more to this concept of glorification than meets the eye.  Here are a few more verses:

23 And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. [Jhn 12:23 ESV]

31 When he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. [Jhn 13:31-32 ESV]

8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. [Jhn 15:8 ESV]

4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. ... 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. [Jhn 17:4, 10 ESV]

NOTE that ALL these quotes are in John.  Does this mean that only John remembered these words?  Does it mean glorification was a concept not understood until after Pentecost when the Spirit taught it to them?  Couldn't be that, or surely Matthew would have mentioned it.  Why only John?  Does it have something to do with the Sect of the Baptist?  Is the Apostle really hammering on some belief of theirs that has to do with this glorification?  The words of Jesus recorded in John 14-17 appear only in John.  They have no corollary at all in the Synoptics.  How can that be...why only John?  And these glorification verses, 2 in John 12, the two consecutive in John 13, and those in Jesus' final instructions in John 15 and 17...NOT ONE of these has a corollary in the Synoptics.  The whole idea/concept/doctrine? appears only in John.

2022 - And in vs 15, once again we have Jesus giving an explanation of why he is saying things the way he says them.  I just think this too is only found in John - perhaps the Synoptics sometimes have an aside where the writer explains something, but do any of them have Jesus inserting an aside to explain his own words to the hearers?  I sure can't think of one.

This verse:

24 Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full. [Jhn 16:24 ESV]

This is the third time now that Jesus has told them whatever they ask he will give.  There has to be more to this than just an admonition to pray.  But what???  I do not get this at all, yet I am sure it is important or Jesus wouldn't say it three separate times in these last words to his disciples?  What is this about????

See 14:13, 14,  then 15:7, and now 16:24.

2025 - Here is another observation about this.  Look at what comes before 16:24.  It goes all the way back to vs 17.  They question they want to ASK was "what is he talking about".  It is repeated in 18.  They are STILL ASKING what Jesus means.  In 19, Jesus addresses them and asks THEM what it is that they want to ASK HIM.  He gives them a long explanation about a woman forgetting her labor pains after the child is born as a metaphor for how they will feel after Jesus' resurrection.  And then vs 23:

23 "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. [Jhn 16:23 NASB95].  From "that day" on, they will no longer ask Jesus questions when they don't understand.  They will ask the Father, and He - the Father - will give them to answers, and I think we can safely add through the Holy Spirit that is coming, since that is what Jesus started off talking about in vs 16.  So this is not about them asking for riches, asking for healing, it isn't about anything like that.  It is about asking for understanding, for clear revelation, for the interpretation of what the word means!  Wouldn't it be something if that's what it meant!?  So check the other two places:

3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, [there] you may be also. 4 "And you know the way where I am going." 5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" ... 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." ... 14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do [it.] [Jhn 14:3-5, 8, 14 NASB95].  I have added more context here...note that Jesus, beginning in vs 1, is talking about going away.  He is talking about his departure after his resurrection.  He tells them that after he is gone, they will have direct access to the Father...NOT through the veil and sacrifice...and can ask the Father their questions!

Then last, in 15:7...what is going on there?

7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [Jhn 15:7 NASB95].  This is about how they will bear fruit after Jesus is gone.  He is the vine, they are the branches.  Much about abiding one in the other, each in the other.  This one...not as clear to me that it is about scripture and interpretation and understanding of the word.  And yet...the words must abide in them, and the Spirit will abide in them, and so Jesus - the word - will abide in them through the Holy Spirit.  And in that way when they ask, they will receive.  Perhaps here it applies to what they will need to bear fruit...to physical things...but it may also be that they will be given the words to preach that lead to salvation, which is the fruit.

Then back to the current passage:

25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. 26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. [Jhn 16:25-27 NASB95].  Jesus gave them words that they did not understand because they were figurative, representative, but they repeatedly failed to understand what he meant, and they either had to ask or were afraid to ask.  How many times have we seen them wanting to ask but afraid to do so?  Once the Spirit is present, they could ask anything at all without fear.  This is the power that shook the world, when these poor fisherman could ask anything about scripture and preach it, though they had not training at all!  They could answer the mysteries of centuries!

These verses are NOT about physical things, they are about how their education would continue after Jesus was gone, after only three years of his instruction on a whole new level.  They would still be able to ask, of the Spirit that the Father would send to answer the questions they asked of Him.

Need to look at this verse in more detail also, but time is getting too short:

29 His disciples said, "Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech! [Jhn 16:29 ESV]

I don't see anything in the previous verses that is a big change from what had gone before.  So why do they suddenly say "Eureka!"? 

2022 - Vss 25-33.  Jesus first tells them that he has previously spoken in figures of speech.  Jesus says that at some point IN THE FUTURE he won't do that anymore but will speak plainly.  Surely we have to connect this with the Holy Spirit beginning on the day of Pentecost.  (or what about the road to Emmaeus and the other appearances of Jesus after the resurrection.  Hmm...I think I'm going with the teaching that Jesus knew he would do in the 40 days between the resurrection and the ascension.  During those days Jesus spoke quite plainly...and while we have hints of the things he said as the gospel writers show the connections between OT prophecy and the life and works and death of Jesus in the NT, we don't have the kind of record that John is giving us here of that last night.  But...do the rest of those verses make sense with that interpretation?  Because that would say that once Jesus is resurrected and talks to them, they will be able to ask anything they want, and Jesus will not have to ask the Father to reveal it to them, but will be able to answer plainly on his own. )

2022 - After Jesus talks, they say "Aha, now we get it!".  But Jesus response in vs 31b says no they didn't.  So my confusion about how all of a sudden they understood is no more confused than they were.  Why they would blurt out that they suddenly understood when they did not....is typical of the literal response of the apostles when Jesus was speaking entirely spiritually.  Jesus tells them they still have no idea, and because they don't, they will be easily scattered that night.  If they  understood the things that Jesus is soon going to tell them plainly, they wouldn't run away that night, because they would have full understanding of the events AS THEY  UNFOLD, rather than understanding them later.  No.  They still had no clue, despite their Eureka moment.