Chapter 17
Jesus prays...How can I not spend time on this!!?!??
2021-2, Starts with "When Jesus had spoken these words...", so the sense is that the previous chapters, from 13 on when they went into the upper room, have been his last instructions, last encouragement, last declarations to them. He has said what he wanted to say, and now, in conclusion, Jesus prays for them. Not some memorized prayer, not a prayer for the public to hear, but a prayer for them in every sense.
2022 - This opening verse:
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, [Jhn 17:1 ESV]. Here we are with the whole glorification theme again. We saw in 16 that only John relates Jesus' use of this word at the end. The word is transliterated "doxazo".
Here are the definitions for Strongs 1392. This word means exactly what we think it means (despite the obviously UK spelling of the words!):
to think, suppose, be of opinion
to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
to impart glory to something, render it excellent
to make renowned, render illustrious
to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged
I do note that it is in the aorist tense, meaning that it's action is not "confined" to any specific time, past, present or future. Glorification is a fact, but for me to keep trying to figure out at what exact moment it happened is incorrect. Probably should have checked that in the other references too, and determined whether or not they are aorist. It is also aorist in vs. 4. Yes...I need to do a word study on John's uses of 1392 and see if it is pretty much always aorist. I think in 4, taking the tense into account, that it is the complete work of Jesus, in following, obeying, and living a perfect life - for his whole life - that glorifies the Father. It is not about right this second, it is about the cumulative effect of Jesus' obedient life that brings glory to the one he was, is, and will serve. It is the whole we are talking about here, not the parts.
In 2, Jesus says the father has given him authority over all flesh. 2021-2, Beyond that, the Father has given Jesus "people", and Jesus can grant eternal life to those he has been given. God has chosen those who will be saved. Jesus has paid the price to save them, and because he died FOR them, it is his to bestow eternal life ON them. It is interesting this sort of "division" in what each manifestation of the Trinity of God does, and why it is that person of the Trinity that does it. But note that always it is God the Father in heaven that bestows authority, responsibility, and so on. In Him, the Father, all things originate.
In 3, eternal life is believing in BOTH the Father and the Son.
In 4, Jesus says he's done the work he was sent to do. 2021-2, Here again the work originated with the Father, and was accomplished by the Son.
In 5, Jesus says he's coming back to where he was, with the Father, BEFORE the world existed. 2021-2, Jesus was not "invented" to die on the cross. He was there already. The Godhead chose to exist as Trinity before the earth ever was. Why? God knows. But that's how it was. So when the time came, the plan for the redemption of man included God in all his persons, all His existence, so that all of God redeemed man. It had to include all three persons to be complete.
2022 - Here is vs 5:
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. [Jhn 17:5 ESV]. A couple of things here. "Glorify" is aorist again, as in glorification exempt from time. It does not mean "Ok, I'm finished with the job, so now glorify me...at a banquet." No. It means glorified in a time-encompassing way. Note in the latter part of the verse that Jesus was glorified already, even before the world existed. This ties right in with the aorist. This is sort of how we used to view the life of say George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. But now we only find fault. I suppose many also try to find fault with Jesus. The second thing is that Jesus uses the aorist imperative here. Imperative means that it is a command. Jesus is "telling God to do something". How could he use that tense if he were anyone but God incarnate himself? I think the use of this Greek "mood" is very telling.
2022 - Vs 6:
6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. [Jhn 17:6 ESV]. Manifested is aorist. "whom you gave" is aorist. "They were" is imperfect, while the following "you gave" is again aorist. "They have kept", however, is in the perfect indicative. The perfect tense means the action was completed in the past, and never needs doing again. It's results are forever. Note that all these aorists and imperfects are used to describe actions by God and Jesus, but the perfect tense - which is about something in the past - is applied to the apostles - who have kept the word. How telling is that? And how absolutely impossible to appreciate in English. Our language is simply not able to convey the intricacy of what Jesus is saying. English is an inferior language.
Also, in what sense did Theos give Christos these people? This is about a transfer of ownership. In what sense? We know that we are in the hands of Christ and that we cannot be snatched from his hands. We are in him...perhaps in the sense that it is up to Jesus, as King of the spiritual kingdom now extant, to keep the former ruler of this world at bay until the rapture, when Jesus will bring us home to be with him, as promised. We were previously in the hands of God, to keep us until the price was paid. But now responsibility - and glory - are transferred to Jesus for his completed work.
(I have to leave and go eat with Bob. After only six verses in 45 minutes.)
2022 - Back from breakfast. This verse:
8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. [Jhn 17:8 ESV]. Look at the central importance of believing in Jesus that is contained in this short little verse. We must realize that Jesus was not just a rabbi, not just a teacher, not just a man. The things he said are to be understood as coming straight from God. We have to recognize the source, and believe the words because of the source. We have to understand that Jesus was not just some random special child, but was sent to the earth as a man. He was sent by God the Father and to accomplish things and to say things that are move vital because they are spoken by a man. All these things we must understand about who Jesus was. And wrapped up in all this is also that the Father and the Son are one, but not one.
vs 9, Jesus prays for the saved, not for everyone. Back to limited atonement. 2021-2, Here is the verse:
9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. [Jhn 17:9 ESV]. There are two groups here, specifically separated. Jesus prays only for those whom God has given him. God gave him those who would be saved. Historically, God gave him those who had been saved. God gave him Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and so on.
2022 - This one:
10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. [Jhn 17:10 ESV]. That first "are" is present active indicative. So it is about the present. At the time Jesus spoke, all that was the Son's was the Father's AND all that were the Father's were his. So...all those of the church age belong to Christ, all those before Christ belong to the Father. And yet, in this verse, the ownership is mutually signed over to the other. The right side of the equation says that all are now co-owned by both Father and Son. That second "are" is really implied, not there as a word in the mGNT. Might read better as "All mine are yours, and yours mine, and I am glorified in them." It is probably the way it is because the KJV says "All mine are thine, and thine are mine." Would be a little strange to read it as All thine are mine and mine thine. See? So all the translations inserted that extra "are" because it had to fit the KJV. Then at the end of the verse, the second verb, "glorified", is perfect passive indicative. Again, the perfect indicates an action completed in the past which does not need to be redone. Jesus was already glorified. Passive refers back to Jesus as the subject of the sentence AND receiver of the action of glorification. Indicative means done deal. It has already happened, though nothing is implied about when specifically it happened.
2021-2, This verse:
11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. [Jhn 17:11 ESV]. Jesus has not yet died, but surely something has changed. Jesus says he is no longer in the world. He came into the world, he's told us he did that. He has done God's will in the world. He has glorified God in the world. He has kept those whom God gave him in the world. But as of here, he is no longer in the world. It would be nice to say that he has accomplished all he came to accomplish...but that isn't so is it? He hasn't died yet, and he hasn't conquered the grave yet. He still has a very trying time ahead of him. So...what does this mean? MSB says his death and resurrection were sure at this point, so sure that Jesus could speak of it as already done. So...when was it not sure? Why can he speak of it in this way now, but he couldn't before? This is pretty mysterious to me. And I don't think the MSB explanation is sufficient. MSB does mention that when persecution and such starts against the followers of Jesus, Jesus will be gone. He is praying for them "in that future time", and at that time, Jesus will be glorified in heaven with God. He won't be with them. So perhaps this is what is meant. Because of the "human events fixed in time" that Jesus is concerned with where his followers are concerned, a "human time" when he will be in infinity with God where it is always timeless, he is conveying to them that he will be with them, but separated in a profound way. It is because of this separation - a separation in time - that the Holy Spirit must come, and exist in time with us in order to help us, while Jesus remains with the Father in infinity.
Yes...the tenses leave room for other interpretations, but I think this works pretty well. At least it does for me!
2023 - This is interesting: 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. [Jhn 17:12 ESV]. One was "lost". Jesus is talking about keeping all those that God gave him, and he is asking God to look after them also, and Jesus states for the record that he kept them all...except this one, whom scripture demanded would be lost. Can we understand this to mean that Judas indeed WAS saved? How can he have been with Jesus for so long, heard the parables and their explanations - parables only the chosen were given the privilege of understanding - and still not been saved? Or is Judas the one exception in all of time who actually was saved, but then lost his salvation, to the point that Satan could enter into him and betray the Son of Man? If we keep this exception in mind, how do the controversial verses that some say show you can lose your salvation read? Well yes, if losing your salvation is necessary for prophecy to be fulfilled, then yes, but that has only ever happened one time, and we are specifically told when that was and why it was and what it had to accomplish. Is this what "may his office be given to another" is really about? That Judas, as saved, had a role - had one of those heavenly thrones where the apostles will judge all Israel - and that office as judge had to be given to another??? Oh my...Wow.
2022 - Or does it mean that Jesus is going to be very busy for the next few days, and in fact, as far as "present tense" is concerned, he will be dead for three days. He will not be present on earth to "look after" those whom God has given him. So he is asking God - in fact, he is using the imperative to demand of God - that during that time he is in the grave, God will need to take care of both his own, and those who belong to Christ. Perhaps that is the reason for the "co-ownership" from this time. Jesus "owns" them, and it is his decision to make this co-ownership, since all things are now given to him. This is Jesus looking ahead to how he will "keep" his own while he is in the grave, and BEFORE the Holy Spirit comes. This makes a kind of sense...I think it is on the right track. But I just get the feeling that I am still missing a little something that ties it all together. If vs 11 started with "when" instead of "And", this way of looking at it would make perfect sense. Vs 11 starts with that very common little word "kai". It shows up 18,000 times in the mGNT, and only 9,269 in the TR. It is worth noting that the word is actually there. Kai is there. I read through the usage of this word in BLB, and there are many. I think the one that best applies here is that kai connects something that went before with that which follows. So if we see it as connecting the assertion in vs 10 - co-ownership - with the demand that follows - "Keep them in your name", then that part at least makes really good sense.
And what an argument here that Jesus most certainly knew that he would rise again! He has this three days when, as a MAN, he cannot effect any action on earth. He needs God to "hold the fort" during that time. But he also knows that after a short time, he will be able to resume earthly existence until the ascension, and THEN HE JESUS will send the Holy Spirit! This is why Jesus is the one who sends the Spirit. It is his spiritual kingdom, and he sends God's Spirit to implement those things that Jesus wants done...in the SAME WAY that Jesus, sent by the Father, does the physical things that need doing which are not God's to do.
I think when an interpretation ties so many loose ends together, it means that you are very close to the truth of the matter.
2023 - Also, while Jesus was physically here, he was offering the physical kingdom of God to the Jews. They rejected the physical kingdom, Jesus, in the flesh, as Messiah. So when Jesus is glorified, his is a spiritual kingdom on earth until all those he has been given are born and saved. Rather than the physical body of Jesus as God present in what could have been a physical kingdom, Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to be present with those spiritually his own and take care of them spiritually as Jesus took care of the 11 physically when he was here. The Spirit is now here, sent by Jesus, to do in a spiritual way, the teaching, the instruction, the leading that Jesus did physically while he was here. It is why Jesus sends the spirit. And before Jesus? God was in heaven. There was only faith or direct communication from God to "a man" in all cases except the reciting of the 10. No wonder it was imperfect! Man always gets it wrong! God saw that a physical presence was required, sending Jesus, who recognized that when he left a spiritual presence would be required, so he sent the Holy Spirit. I think that all works pretty well.
2024 - Many phrases here tell us that Jesus is praying for the 11 that he is leaving behind. This prayer is not for all who will ever be saved under the new covenant, but specifically about the 11 who will preach the New Covenant that saves the world.
vs 6 - to the MEN you gave me out of the world.
7 - now they know. "Know" is perfect tense, meaning it was COMPLETED in the past and continues always. There was no more to be taught. They KNOW.
8 - they received them and truly understood. These two are aorist. Unstuck in time.
11 - I am not in the world but THEY ARE in the world.
12 - I guarded them, not one perished but Judas. Aorist again. Here is a further proof that back in 16 it was exclusively to the 11 that Jesus was speaking. That one bore no fruit, and even though Judas was in the 12, he was removed. But the rest need not worry for they are now clean. All things are given to Christ, and Satan cannot take away any of the remaining 11 ever again. Here in 17, Jesus' prayer is that they have the same kind of "perfect fellowship" with Christ as Christ has with the father. They will speak only what they have heard from Jesus and Jesus speaks only what he has seen and heard from God. This is not a universal verse for all the saved. This is about the 11, and again, John is telling us this to show that it is the 11, exclusively, and NOT the Baptist, that are entrusted with the infallible word. So undeniable.
17 - Sanctify them. Surely about the 11.
18 - As You sent me I have sent them. All aorist again!
2024 - I am not the only one who sees this in this way. Paragraph title for vs 20 is "Christ prays for all believers. Here, those in view expand from the 11 exclusively to all who will be saved.
2021-2, This verse, in connection with vs 11:
14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. [Jhn 17:14 ESV].
The saved are not of the world in God's view, because in infinity, we are already present with him. We are "doing a few years" on earth as imperfect human beings, but in eternity we will have perfect bodies and minds and live in the glory of the Father and the Son. The world hates us not just for what we stand for, but for the destiny we have in heaven as contrasted with their destiny in hell.
2023 - "hated" is in the aorist sense. The hate is always present. The saved of all time are hated in their time, across time, through time.
An interesting verse here:
15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. [Jhn 17:15 ESV]
We are to continue in the world, we are not protected FROM the world, but from the evil one. God doesn't promise us an easy life on earth at all. He promises to keep us out of the hands of Satan in eternity!
FB post?
2021-2, As Satan wanted to destroy Job, as he wanted to destroy Peter, and as he wants to destroy us all in general - that we might curse God and die as failures - is what is in view here. He cannot remove us from salvation any more than he could remove Job. But he might certainly make us like dogs returning to our vomit, so broken as Christians that we return to living an un-Christian life, as we did before, yet never, ever content with our lives. Satan wants to do that to us, and Jesus is praying that God will prevent it.
2022 - Just look how much sense this makes when understood in light of the three days in the grave explanation above. Jesus wants God to look after all that are his, but to look after them on earth, in the physical, he is not asking God to go ahead and take them all to heaven and look after them there.
15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. ... 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. [Jhn 17:15, 24 ESV]
If the Father and the Son are one, how did the Father love himself before the foundation of the world? I think Jesus means that God, in his infinite knowledge, knew all the possibilities of a person's character in the people he created, and God chose certain characteristics as desirable. It is these characteristics, chosen by God Himself, that Jesus embodied in his time on earth. Jesus is the perfect man, the "mold" that we are to emulate, to be made from. Jesus is God, and so these characteristics are in God, and they are the way, therefore, that defines perfection. Jesus is who God would be if God was made into a man. And indeed, that is the fact of the whole thing. But in perfection, God, as Spirit, could not associate with sin....I give up. I cannot explain the Trinity. But there might be a nugget or two in this paragraph that moves me a little closer to understanding it.
2022 - 20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, [Jhn 17:20 ESV]. Those yet to come - you and me - are be included in the Kingdom just as those apostles in the upper room. All those whom Jesus has converted are in view in the prayer, are in view as mutually owned, and as needing God's protection while Jesus is dead. But then Jesus asks that as God accepts co-ownership of those, he also accept co-ownership of the spiritual children that result from their witness down through time. This is the "adoption" spoken of so often by Paul. God also owned the Apostles, as Jesus did. And God also owns us, in that we have been born of the witness of those men in those days. Wow...