Revelation CHAPTER 17
2025-2 - I believe it would be very helpful to reference Isaiah 47 when speculating about the Scarlet Woman and about the Fall of Babylon the Great. Isaiah perhaps gives us context for what these really are and some characteristics that we can use to positively identify them. There is a LOT of good information in Isaiah 47.
2025 - The notes on this chapter are a complete wreck. This has to have a complete overhaul and soon - before I paste the 2025 notes in. I don't know how I'm going to compress these notes, but they make no sense right now. I need to pick an interpretation, support that one, and maybe put a few alternates at the end, but I need to separate the different speculations. Main points: This is a vision, an icon, not a "real" thing. It symbolizes, as did the vision of the woman about to give birth. Second, follow up on the Greek genders. I think my conclusions are wrong, but if some are neuter and some female and some male, it might matter. Especially follow up on the fake high priest. What gender?
2023 POST-SCRIPT - It appears to me that every time I have read this chapter, I have tried to puzzle it out myself and come up with some things that are pretty close, and some things that are just ridiculous. What I have DONE WRONG EVERY TIME is tried to get it myself. That is NOT NECESSARY. There is an angel here who tells us what this whole chapter is about beginning in vs 8. So WHEN I EDIT THIS CHAPTER - skip down and START with the angelic explanation, and perhaps build on that, infer from that, understand from that. But the foundation to understand this very difficult chapter is laid out for us by this angel. THAT'S WHY HE'S THERE! GOD KNEW WE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND THIS OTHERWISE. And I also believe we ought to see this as an icon, a picture committed to memory. One thing that is still bugging me...how is this beast "not", but is about to rise? That means this beast at some point was confined to the pit - need to know when - has not been active for a long time, but is about to be released again...After the Babylonian captivity, idol worship went away for the Jews, along with cult prostitutes. They didn't fall for that any more. Pagans still did, but we have no more stories of it infecting the Jews. Perhaps that is when this beast was confined, and right here at the end it will be released again to corrupt as many remaining Jews as possible. Wow...that too makes sense.
2022 - This note several days later. This year, I felt I was really understanding this book, far more than I ever have before. And I think my interpretations up to this chapter 17 are very solid. But from 17 on...I just don't know. Here is the thing. Chapter 16 ends with the last of the wrath of God poured out. That is an ending, and that is borne out in 16:17 with the shout of "It is done!". So I am satisfied that I have a pretty solid understanding now of end times events, up until the end of wrath. Then, in 17 we start all this Babylon stuff, and then we have the wedding. All this last goes through 19:10. Beginning in 19:11, I think we get back on the earthly chronologically unfolding events, and I kind of grasp that also. But from 17:1 to 19:10? I just really don't think I understand. There is a lot of rank speculation in the notes from 17 to 19:10.
((2022 - You really can't read about Babylon in Revelation without reading about Babylon in Jeremiah 50, 51 also. I think they are about the very same thing/time.))
2022 - This chapter is only 17 verses.
2022 - I went back and read these two chapters in Jeremiah. They are long. 50 has 46 verses and 51 has 64. There are many phrases there that I think we will see repeated in Revelation - almost word for word. But here is how Jer 51 ends:
"Jeremiah wrote in a book all the disaster that should come upon Babylon, all these words that are written concerning Babylon." [Jer 51:60 ESV]
"And Jeremiah said to Seraiah: "When you come to Babylon, see that you read all these words," [Jer 51:61 ESV]
"and say, 'O LORD, you have said concerning this place that you will cut it off, so that nothing shall dwell in it, neither man nor beast, and it shall be desolate forever.'" [Jer 51:62 ESV]
So to Jeremiah, all of this prophecy was about the Babylon of his day and the things that were shortly to overtake that city. I don't think Jeremiah had an inkling about what would come in Revelation. So...let's assume John used the old Babylon as the prototype of this city in Revelation 17. The "crimes" committed by ancient Babylon are the same crimes this new Babylon has committed. Let's list some from Jeremiah:
"Therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I am bringing punishment on the king of Babylon and his land, as I punished the king of Assyria." [Jer 50:18 ESV]
""Behold, I am against you, O proud one, declares the Lord GOD of hosts, for your day has come, the time when I will punish you." [Jer 50:31 ESV]
Interestingly, Jer 50 really only gives us one reason, and we have to infer it.
What about 51?
"For Israel and Judah have not been forsaken by their God, the LORD of hosts, but the land of the Chaldeans is full of guilt against the Holy One of Israel." [Jer 51:5 ESV]. God is taking vengeance on Babylon because it abused his people.
""I will repay Babylon and all the inhabitants of Chaldea before your very eyes for all the evil that they have done in Zion, declares the LORD." [Jer 51:24 ESV]. Same as vs 50:5. This is repayment for crimes committed. God's vengeance.
"The violence done to me and to my kinsmen be upon Babylon," let the inhabitant of Zion say. "My blood be upon the inhabitants of Chaldea," let Jerusalem say." [Jer 51:35 ESV] For brutality against and murder of "the inhabitants of Zion", that is, for Israel.
"Babylon must fall for the slain of Israel, just as for Babylon have fallen the slain of all the earth." [Jer 51:49 ESV]. Isn't the implication here that Israel will somehow benefit from the destruction of Babylon? Ancient Israel was to benefit from the fall of ancient Babylon. It is a complicated sentence...
""Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will execute judgment upon her images, and through all her land the wounded shall groan." [Jer 51:52 ESV]. For idolatry. As in worshiping the beast and the dragon?
""Go out of the midst of her, my people! Let every one save his life from the fierce anger of the LORD!" [Jer 51:45 ESV]. This verse sort of implies that there were still Jews living in Babylon in Jeremiah's day, for whatever reason, and they are here warned to get out. Sounds like Lot in Sodom.
So this paragraph above is sort of "prep" for reading what Revelation 17 has to say about Babylon.
2023 - Preliminary to reading. Back in Chapter 14, this year, I think the meaning of "Babylon" finally clicked with me. Here is a repeat of that entry, from just up above: We are resuming the narration from just after the 7th trumpet. We are fast approaching the 7 last plagues. The end of the world, once and for all is approaching. Three angels come by.
The first is a final offer of the gospel to those remaining on earth, to whom surely the truth of God and his power have now been amply and indisputably demonstrated. The winning side ought to be obvious. So there is a chance to repent.
The second tells us that Babylon has fallen. Hmm...In the signs, Satan and his angels have been thrown out of heaven for good. Satan's administration as ruler of the earth is ended and Jesus is on his way to assume the throne of earth. Might that finally be what Babylon is about? Oh my!!! The way the world works - capitalism, socialism, anarchism, tribalism, feudalism...ALL THESE were invented by Satan to keep us pacified but prisoners of these inherently corrupt, inherently inadequate ways of governing ourselves. ALL these systems that keep mankind organized toward a goal aim at worldly ambitions. It is THESE that are ending, and a theocracy is about to be put in place, because only a society organized to serve its creator can bring about the true peaceful fulfilled existence that every person craves. Yes. THIS is what Babylon means. It means so many things that it is no wonder we can't figure out what it represents. But here it is finally!!!
So I am going to go with that as the encompassing overall meaning of Babylon here in Revelation. It is Satan's administration of earth, via human government and economic systems. The reason so much harm can be attributed directly to both socialism and communism is that neither has the glorification of God as its aim. Of course they lead to oppression and cruelty and government sponsored death and destruction. We'll go with that this year as we dig into Chapter 17.
2024 - Two possible keys here. Babylon fell at the second angel flying over in chapter 14. So this chapter is a look back at what happened when she fell. She fell after the 7th trumpet, before the first bowl. Make a list of everything else that happened then.
Second, the beast and the 10 Kings hate Babylon. God causes them to hate her for his own reasons, but why do they think they hate her? And what has sexual immorality to do with it?
They hate her, they kill her.
She sits on water - I think that is Gentle nations. The seven hills are the seven spiritual kingdoms. Maybe.
Is Babylon the spirit of rebellion in man? Lust and greed and hate....the thing in us that caused the fall? The seed of independence, the I did it my way? Seems unlikely, but maybe part of it all.
2025 - I have read back through all the notes above on Chapter 17. It occurs to me that Jeremiah's prophecies about Babylon were about the "world power" that controlled and oppressed God's people. This future Babylon is the world government of that time, its capitol city and all its people. We know from previous chapters that the MoL made a deal, reneged on it, declared himself God, and then began persecuting God's people as never before - first the church and Israel both - and then when the church was raptured out, he pursues Israel in earnest. If God said so many things about his vengeance on Babylon of old, even though he sent them into Judah to punish Judah for their sins, how much more will he bring on future Babylon and its rulers who are trying to extinguish the Jews from the planet?
Vs 1 says that one of the seven angels with the seven bowls - so an angel from the sanctuary, from the conditional covenant - offers to show John the judgment on the "great prostitute". (2023 - Now disagree about the different covenant. This is one of the seven spirits of God, continually in his presence.) So we have to decide if this is something happening during this seventh bowl, or something that happens immediately afterward? As the end of 16 is worded, it seems that pretty much the whole planet has been reduced to rubble, but for the three parts of the great city. Babylon equals Jerusalem. I think we see here that Antichrist set up his kingdom, the seat of his worldwide government in the city of Jerusalem. If the dragon's intent was to create a parallel "image" of what God has established, he will need to do it where the temple of God was, he will have to make sure that he is worshiped in that temple, as King, and he must have his own high priest there. With this in mind, we can see where "the time between", when Jews AND Christians were being pursued and murdered because they would not take the mark, make this city guilty of the charges in Jer. 51:5, 24, 35, 49!, and 52? Further, as Great Trib progressed, and both Israel and converted Gentiles are pursued and hounded, we have even more of it.
So if we start with these indictments, then what do we find to be true about the secular inhabitants of the world at that time? They worship the beast so they can eat. They worship so they can prosper as the world falls apart. They enforce Satanic policy aimed at the destruction of the Jews just as so many bowed to Hitler's policies - indeed were ambitious to excel at his policies against the Jews in order to win his favor.
So then the image of a prostitute seated on many waters...No! We don't see this yet! The angel tells John he will show him the judgment of this prostitute! And he tells John about her! This angel has some knowledge of this woman, and he takes John to see her. What can we surmise from the information the angel gives John about something/someone that we have not yet seen?
We should recognize that water is the source of spiritual beings. Maybe the angel knows that Satan's demons have propped up this woman, supported her? Satanic forces are the source of it's power and coercion. Remember the talking abomination, the fire called down, and so on. Why the prostitute? We are going to see this a little later. For now, in the rest of vs 2, we see that this approach - prostitution to the demonic - has spread to all that remain alive in t/gt. This was what Satan wanted. He is being worshiped and served by (almost) all mankind.
2023 -SUMMARY of Vss 1,2. The angel talks to John just after John has seen the seventh bowl poured out. The bowl was a vision of what is to come. The angel comes to John while he is in heaven "in the Spirit". So we are now outside the chronology of the end times, and John is being led around in heaven somewhere. Not physically, but in the Spirit. He is going to go and see a judgment. The subject is a great prostitute seated on many waters. I believe this prostitute is another icon, another embedded understanding of how things are. So what we have to do is unravel the symbolism in the icon. All we know for now is that there is a prostitute seated on many waters. In the two previous signs/icons, the pregnant woman was supported by sun and moon. The second was a sea of glass surrounded by harpists. These harpists were standing on solid ground around that sea. Many waters? She is perhaps the instrument of many demonic plots. She is a prostitute because she carries out the plots - even though they degrade and shame her - for material gain. That is all we know so far.
Vs 3 - In the spirit, carried away. This seems to be about a vision, not a reality. This will all be symbolism.
And this is where I missed it on the first pass. I was trying to make all this in 17 fit consecutively with the end of 16. Visions do not work like that. Initially, we don't really even know where we are in the big scheme of things. We just have this vision.
"...I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns." [Rev 17:3 ESV] Who/what is this beast? We have two candidates:
First, from Rev 12:
"And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems." [Rev 12:3 ESV]
We know from context in 12 that this red dragon is Satan.
We note that he is red, not scarlet. The Greek word for red is G4450, "pyrros". It is the "color of fire", or "red" in Biblical usage. The red horse of the second seal was also this color. Other than a proper name in Acts, these two instances are the only NT uses of pyrros.
In 17:3 the woman sits on a "scarlet" beast. The Greek for scarlet is G2847, "kokkinos". This word is used 6 times in the NT. It is the color of the robe placed on Jesus. The wool used to sprinkle blood on dedicated items was scarlet. The remaining four are all in Rev. In 17:3 it is the color of a beast. In the remaining three it is the color of clothing. I think this clearly shows that the beast on which the woman sits is an unconfusingly different color than the dragon.
He is described as a dragon, not a beast.
The seven heads and ten horse match in 12 and 17.
The dragon in 12 wears diadems, but the beast in 17 does not.
Second, from Rev 13:
"And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads." [Rev 13:1 ESV].
We are never told the color of the beast rising out of the sea in 13:1.
We know the beast in 13 is not Satan, because Satan is watching from the shore. So this is a separate beast. This is the demon the dragon put in charge of things after they were all expelled from heaven.
This beast rises from the sea, and the woman is seated on many waters.
This beast and the one in 17 have ten horns and seven heads.
The beast in 13 has diadems like the dragon, but the beast in 17 does not.
The beast in 13 has blasphemous names, as does the one in 17.
So what is the conclusion? We have to pick one.
The woman is on a scarlet beast. Satan is red. Not a match.
Satan is a dragon, not a beast. This is not Satan. Not a match.
The dragon is wearing diadems in 12. The beast in 17 is not. Not a match.
The blasphemous names of the beasts in 13 and 17 match up.
The woman is on water, the beast in 13 came from water. That matches up.
All three have seven heads and ten horns, so this tells us nothing useful.
We don't know the color of the beast in 13. Cannot use color to decide.
I would add one more thing. The woman is sitting ON the beast. She is the rider. She is supported, transported, "served" by the beast. I do not see Satan ever, anywhere being a servant.
Therefore, this woman is seated on the beast from the sea back in Rev. 13:1. (2023 - No, not the same one, but one of equal place in Satan's hierarchy of demons. A very powerful beast, able to roam the whole earth.) What does this tells us? That we were right about that beast being a powerful angel put in charge of Satan's dominions, and perhaps even setting out the strategy to usurp God. We were right that the fallen angels of Satan were supporting the kingdom on earth of the first beast from the earth. BUT, why is a woman now representing the first beast from the earth? Why did the gender change? Perhaps because we are no longer talking about the government of the earth, but about its religion? (
2023 - No...I get the impression that this scarlet beast has been around a VERY long time, perhaps since the day Satan began to roam to and fro on the earth. The strategy of this beast, and the prostitute he pimps, have been around since the fall. Satan has used sexual immorality to corrupt man, to divert man, to separate man from God, from the beginning. This is what Balaam sponsored against Israel. Hmm...in the case of Balaam, it was mixing idol worship and temple prostitutes to undermine God's rules for Israel. Perhaps this is the main strategy, and corollary to that is the incidental use of immorality to break up families through porn and infidelity and neighbor's wives, to coerce good men to do bad things, to coerce good men to betray their countries, their fellow soldiers, their kings. How many stories of high level betrayal through the ages include in some significant role an unprincipled female? All of them?
Well here is something interesting...Back in 13:5, the first beast of the earth, and in 13:11, the second beast of the earth, the gender of the noun translated "beast" is neuter. So...beasts don't have gender...but people do. Oh my...where else do we see the second beast described? Do we get masculine or feminine gender indication elsewhere? The ONLY place we have any indication that the second beast from the earth is male is in this verse:
"This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666." [Rev 13:18 ESV]
There is something quite interesting here...let me rewrite it making use of the Greek genders that we have:
"This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of [it], for it is the number of a man, and [its] number is [man][man][man]." [Rev 13:18 ESV]
I sure wish I had a better understanding of Greek grammar in the late first century AD! (hex-a-KAH-see-oy, hex-A-kunt-a, hex. This is the Greek pronunciation for six-hundred sixty six.)
Ok, this is probably the most far-fetched thing I've come up with in this whole study of Revelation, and is virtually certain to be wrong, dependent as it is on my own culture...which is, by the way, much closer to what the culture of the end times will be than was John's culture. Just saying.
It seems to me that since the gender of the two beasts of the earth is neutral, the gender of the two people they stand for could be either male or female. The Greek word for beast, "therion", is gender neutral. Really tells us almost nothing. You can't change that. Some beasts are angelic/demonic, and some beasts are people, so John came up with a way of telling us the origin of each beast -sea or earth - so we could distinguish between angels and people. Very ingenious. So how could he also come up with a way to tell us what sex they were - IF they were not both male? We always assume that they are both male. What if the False prophet is female? That's why she is a woman on a scarlet dragon. Because the second beast from the earth, appointed by the first beast as head of the Satanic church, is a woman.
If we continue with that idea, does anything fall into place besides why the rider of the beast from the sea is female? Well...yeah. Explains why she's described as a prostitute. Kings (masculine) have committed sexual immorality with her. "Her" name is "Babylon the great mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations". Quite a name.
Umm......also, I have heard John MacArthur discuss at length that the advancement of "Mary" worship by the Catholic church is a Satanic strategy. The Temple of Diana comes to mind with it's temple prostitutes. And...why wouldn't the Antichrist set up a cult religion that included sex and orgy and immorality for all as part of the "draw" when inviting the remaining people of earth to worship the Antichrist!?!?!?! Of course he would! THAT is who this is! It is for using this same strategy that Balaam is vilified in both Old Testament and New! He polluted the Mosaic covenant by introducing something else very similar, having similar rituals and sacrifices, BUT ALSO OFFERING FREE SEX!!!
I'm thinking this idea is not so very far off the mark at all. This is what the female pope, the second beast from the sea, set up as the world religion. An old strategy and supremely effective as it has always been at manipulating mankind. Truly addictive religion. And with the last of his wrath, it is THIS strategy that God will wipe out forever. So...one more twist. The number. You have to be wise to understand. You have to understand that this beast, who set up all this sex and immorality, isn't really a woman at all. He just looks like one. And that number of his, somehow, will give the truth away.
So that's my new theory. Now we will see what the angel interprets from the scene. We "think" at this point that we know who the beast is. The first beast from the sea. But we don't know "when" this is.
2023 SUMMARY of vss 3-6a - Therefore, the beast she is mounted on is not Satan. This beast is much like the beast in Chapter 13. It had diadems, but also had the blasphemous names. That beast was "less" than the dragon but served the dragon. The seven heads and 10 horns tell us that beast had cross-dominion authority. So does this scarlet beast. It is demonic. It is VERY powerful. It serves Satan. This prostitute does what she does across the whole planet and at the bidding of this scarlet beast. Additionally...I am not feeling all too good about the paragraph above with women in charge of religion. I think it is much better interpretation to see this as a third iconic sign to embed in us all that immorality in all its forms is a tool used by Satan on earth to undermine our loyalty to God and to separate us from his ways.
It starts with this verse:
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come." [Rev 17:8 ESV]
The bottomless pit was opened back at the fifth trumpet. The locusts were the first ones out. So this beast would have been still in the bottomless pit at the opening of the sixth seal, and the rapture, because when those happen, the abomination is where it ought not to be. We know from Rev 13:1 that the beast we saw there preceded the appearance of the abomination. So this pretty solidly eliminates that beast in 13:1 from being the beast upon which the woman sits. All that work was a waste. This is a previously unseen beast.
However, we have now seen this 7 heads and 10 horns thing three times. The dragon. The beast from the sea. And now the beast from the pit. Satan has two generals. The general in 13:1 was the general over civil matters. He set up the first beast from the earth, and the false prophet. He consolidated world government using these. Perhaps. Then we see this next....
Another beast, but not THE dragon. If he was in the pit, he is not a man, he is a demonic angel. But...the pit was opened on the 5th trump. This demon, according to the angel, tells John that the scarlet beast is still in the pit. He has not come up yet. So this tells us that we are at some time AFTER the fifth trumpet when John sees this vision. This makes sense, because of the word "then" in 17:1. John is seeing this vision - this symbolism - after the hailstones, when only Jerusalem is left. Jerusalem is Babylon, and before it is actually destroyed, John is getting more information in symbolism from this angel. John actually sees this prostitute himself in 17:6. And in vs 8, the real beast - not the one in the vision - "is about to rise from the bottomless pit". So we are at the very end. Babylon must still be destroyed, but this beast is not yet on the scene. He is going to show up, and be almost immediately destroyed. Look more closely at the very long vs 8:
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come." [Rev 17:8 ESV]
This seems to indicate that this beast will be recognized when he appears. He has been here before, but either he left, he was run off, or he was vanquished. But unsaved people still holding on at the end of Great Tribulation are amazed that he is "back".
In vs 9 we get this phrase again:
"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;" [Rev 17:9 ESV] Compare with this earlier version, that we have been discussing:
"This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666." [Rev 13:18 ESV]
So we ought to be as mystified about the seven heads being seven mountains as we are about 666! They are at the same level of importance and mystery. These are two hard things.
It seems pretty easy to figure out the seven mountains are the seven hills of Rome. But there is more to it than that simple explanation...because we get this ALSO:
"they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while." [Rev 17:10 ESV].
So yeah, this makes it a bit more complicated. The wording says the heads are hills, and also a chronological "hall of kings". Five kings have already come. One is in place. One is yet to come for a very short time.
And...we know that there is a beast in the pit who's been here before that is "also" yet to come. Are they the same?
2025 - The 7 Kings. According to MSB note on vs 10, the seven are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the kingdom of the MoL. First five fallen, sixth in power at the time of the vision - which would be Rome, and one to come, the MoL. Rome was indeed in power as John wrote Revelation. The Kings are the heads of the beast, but not the beast itself. So what is this beast? Power/Government? Dominion for short? Or maybe more specifically world governments. Rome works in John's time as "one is". I don't know. I can't get it. REMEMBER that this is vision. It is symbolism build on symbolism in that the seven heads are BOTH 7 mountains and 7 kings. Can't get them either.
2025 - Scarlet is royalty, and so is purple. Somehow this woman is associated with royalty. She symbolizes...hmmm...the desire of women to rule over men in the halls of power... Does she symbolize the fallout from the curse and Satan's use of the curse for his own benefit? Men are kings, but women control and manipulate with sex in order to wield the power themselves? This idea has some promise...but it is time to move on.
So...the one who has not yet come might be this one that is still in the pit that we've been talking about, who has also been here before. If so, then the kings are demonic angels over the angels of the seven dominions - like the beast in 13:1, who may very well be the one "who now is" in this story, and the one in the pit is still to come. Here is another idea though. Perhaps all these demonic kings were in place when the seven last plagues began. As the battle has progressed, five have fallen, one is still in place. That's just six. So what about the seventh? What's going on there is this is about the seven dominions, what is going on in the seventh? I can see where one who had fallen might come back and re-occupy one of the dominions but how does that make him an eighth when we don't know what's going on in the seventh. Unless, as with the 10 horns, where 3 break down, and a new one comes up...10-3 is 7 that have suffered no loss. But that little horn that comes up rules over all of the seven. That makes him an eight, though he was never one of the seven. But you have to start with 10 to make this work. Still, if the demonic is organized like the worldly, then while Antichrist is in power, there are 8 nations on earth.
I just do not know. And I'm taking too much time. This is the first chapter that I just haven't been able to make any sense of. Maybe I will get it the next time through. Not giving up, but I am speeding up, and I am not going to try and stretch so far for the rest of the chapter.
And now this one...but I am going to copy down the verse above that I believe goes with it:
seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while., vs 10.
"As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction." [Rev 17:11 ESV]
So the beast still in the pit is an eighth - but belongs to the seven. So it is a king - a demonic king. So the previous seven have also been demonic kings. This beast in the pit has previously been out of the pit. So...the beast in the pit has two spots in this line up of kings. It was here before, and then it wasn't here - so one of the seven, and by inference it is one of the first five, because it isn't the one in charge "now", and it won't be the seventh. If was the seventh, there wouldn't be 8 total. It says he is "an eighth".
Same kind of thing. I don't understand this.
Seven heads = seven hills = seven kings = seven dominions. All in the spiritual world. Perhaps the seven hills are the seven "regional" capitals of the seven "nations" of earth that correspond to the seven spiritual dominions. Perhaps the "demon" over each one resides in that capital. Those capitals have all just been wiped out, but for one - the one in Jerusalem is still there. One of the seven was ruled by an underling, a vassal, just holding the spot for the beast still confined in the pit. He couldn't take his spot at first, he was locked up. So the one in charge of the seventh, wasn't really a king. He was a viceroy, a regent. That's why he is not mentioned. So there were seven, but one was not really, and the true seventh - who is an eighth because he was not one of those seven - is still to come. Holy cow. That works! And people are amazed at the eighth, because he is very powerful - more powerful than the five who had fallen, more powerful than his regent. They didn't know there were any more like him - like the one in charge at Jerusalem, who is the one in 13:1. AND, in 17:3 it the prostitute was in the wilderness, because the seven dominions of Satan were wrecked at this time. I believe that ties up pretty nicely for the spiritual aspects of what is going on here at the pouring out of the last bowl. And when this eight demon shows up, he won't be around long, because the last of God's wrath is headed his way, and the 42 months are about done. Jesus is about ready to show up and take it all over.
What comes in 12:
"And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast." [Rev 17:12 ESV]
These ten kings would seem to be the earthly kings, and when the beast supporting the prostitute receives power, he will somehow "promote" these 10 earthly kings to royal power. The ten new kings are needed because the bowls likely wiped out the previous 10 that had served to that time. They are likely quite unqualified and scared to death.
Next verse, 13, confirms this. These 10 are just figureheads, who "draft" all they can find to fill the ranks of the last ditch army to fight against Jesus himself. They supply the fodder actually ruled over by the last two beasts.
Vss 15-18
The water back in vs 1 represented all the people and organization left in the world at that time.
I am worn out, so just taking one run at this:
As he bowls have been poured out, the demons, and the Antichrist, have colluded in blaming the world religion for failing them in their time of need. They burn churches, murder priests, run them out of town to fend for themselves. These ten last kings have turned over all their power to the beasts, so that the last battle is actually a spiritual battle, between Jesus at his coming, and all the rabble that Satan can muster after God's wrath has devastated all of earth but the seat of the beast from the sea, and the beast from the pit.
The woman is the great city - that is, she is Egypt, Sodom, and Babylon...and she is Jerusalem. The last city, the refuge of the false prophet, of false religion, of "Balaam's Way".
Looking ahead, Chapter 18 is about the fall of Babylon. If I am even a little bit right, this is chronologically what we would expect. The last hold-out bastion of the rebellious - both man and demon - is in Babylon, and it is now time for that to fall. The last of the seventh bowl, the end of the wrath of God, after which the earth will be a leveled cinder of a planet, unable to support life, dark, smoky, and dead.
2026 - This verse:
15 And the angel said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. [Rev 17:15 ESV].
Why look anywhere else for explanation of the water from which the first beast rises? And if this is where the first comes from, if this is the sea, then the land is everything NOT covered here. But what is left? Animals? Seems unlikely. Is it possible to NOT be part of peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages? To be independent of all worldly organizations, governments, alliances?
Ahhh....yes there is. There is a place called the Vatican. A nation but not a nation. A place of complete independence, not a part of any treaty or alliance with any anyone anywhere. My oh my oh my...
2026 - With the above in mind, back up to these verses:
9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. [Rev 17:9-10 ESV].
The 7 hills of Rome often come up here but I never believed it was a direct reference to Roman Catholicism. But this says not just 7 hills but ALSO seven kings. They are obviously sequential. But this is vision so they could as easily be about all of history as about the 70th week. Seven Popes that stand above all the rest? Five Popes who expand the reach of the RCC and/or its political power into the seat of every government, then one, and then one, and the beast is one of the seven and also an eighth? Is this one of the beasts we previously saw? No...it is the beast on whom the harlot sits. That beast.
2026 - If we continue with this...the woman is a city. Not a queen or system as such but independent of those things. She is "the" great city of vs 18. And look at this! There are TWO definite articles associated with this. THE great THE city. Only one so great. Only one such city.
2026 - This speculation sure makes we want to keep a closer eye on the doings of the Catholic Church. But they are secretive. Their power is held quite closely at the top. Learn more about it's organization and about that college of Cardinals. See how many Cardinals previous Popes have appointed to that body. See if something unprecedented is beginning to happen.
Previous notes:
(For when I get to 17. The prostitute represents the perverted combination of immorality with religion, a potent attractant. An addiction quite possibly. This sort of thing was far more prevalent in the time of John than now. In fact, it goes all the way back to Balaam and his strategy for undermining Israel. It was done by immoral rites practiced as part of worshiping idols and false gods. In John's time, there were temple prostitutes, temple orgies, and even philosophy such as dualism was used to "dignify" immorality by saying things the filthy corrupt body did had no bearing at all on the spirit. What do we have today that compares? Does anyone at all do this sort of thing in the name of religion any more? There was that Indian guy out in CA, where almost all his followers got VD because the sex was so rampant. Manson used it. It's still around. But for some reason, in Great Trib, the bad guys themselves will combine to wipe it out. Could be that this is a new religion that is going to rise up, but we haven't really seen it yet.)))
An aside about the judgement of the great harlot. Portrayed as a woman in the wilderness sitting on a scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns. She is Mystery, Babylon the great and is drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. This is the personified hatred of the authority of God and all who follow him.
The beast she sits on is the beast who was, and is not, and yet is.
The beasts seven heads are seven mountains. There are seven kings, five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come, and will continue a short time.
2024 - This verse from Proverbs I found on 11/4/24:
1 Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars; [Pro 9:1 NASB95]. Might be relevant.
The beast itself is the eighth, and is of the seven.
The ten horns are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but will receive it one hour as kings with the beast.
They will make war with the Lamb, and will lose.
The water where the harlot sits are the nations and peoples. The ten horns will hate the harlot, and attack her and burn her and eat her flesh. They will do this because God will put into their hearts to fulfill His purpose. I guess this is a final example of His being in control of all things, that he makes them turn on their whore.
She is the great city who reigns over the kings of the earth. I don't get this. Literal city? Or the craving for power? The craving to be as God?
Second time, 2/25/20
I think I know what this represents now. A woman, but she has the 7 and 10. This is Satan's rule over the earth, through corrupt men and governments.
Mother of prostitutes - analogy in this case. Men who corrupt themselves in the name of personal gain and ambition prostitute themselves to the ruler of this world. They take his abuse, they agree to do those things that please him for their own selfish gain.
This verse:
15 And the angel said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. [Rev 17:15 ESV]
Surely this is an image of the governments of mankind. Then it says the beast and the 10 horns will hate the prostitute - they will hate the governments of man, and they will destroy them. They will ruin the earth. God has made it so.
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