Chapter 2
This chapter starts with a pretty difficult verse:
1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. [Rom 2:1 ESV]
This comes right after the long list of depravities that result from the wrath of abandonment. The downward spiral into a culture not fit to live in. It ends saying these people not only do the things they know are deserving of death, but approve of others who do the same. And then comes the therefore, the conclusion of it all. This has happened, and therefore we who judge them are without excuse either.
MSB says the point here is that if we have enough knowledge of the laws of God to judge others, then we are overlooking a lot of our own problems. We do this by minimizing our own sins while pointing out the horror of the sins of others. That's what MSB says this means.
But he uses the same phrase here of those who judge that he used in 1:20b. Without excuse. In 1:20 it was those who refused to recognize God in creation, in the natural world all around them, who are without excuse.
So where does this go?
The paragraph goes through vs. 5. The judgers to whom Paul is referring are apparently really practicing the same sins they are judging. They have hard and impenitent hearts. These are not saved people. They are just "religiously aware" church goers, who know that those who don't attend church are doing the wrong things". And somehow, they think that because they do attend church, they can judge others, but yet do the same things as the judged without fear of God's wrath. Paul is telling them they cannot get by this way.
2021 - I think I had this wrong also. We all judge. We all condemn. Sometimes - often even - Christians are the worst about judging. But true self-examination will reveal the same sins in us that we condemn in others. If you steal a nickel it is still stealing, and you are still a thief. Same as if you sell state secrets to a foreign government. Both are thieves. Could be this is what it really is about...Do we judge homosexuals as "hopeless as to salvation" but count our own innumerable but "smaller" sins as no handicap at all? Is this really what Paul is trying to say to the people in Rome? I mean, they are certainly in the middle of a culture as low, depraved, corrupt, debased, greedy and shameful as the one we live in today. Wouldn't it have been easy for that church to sit around decrying the sad state of affairs around them and fretting that there was just no way to "put the brakes on", or no way to "reach those fallen so far", or how about that it must be time for Christ's return because it couldn't get any worse than this? And Paul is saying...well you guys weren't really any better. You too were ungrateful, unthankful, unsubmissive, and self-aggrandizing. I think this is what it is about. It is a reminder to those of us snatched back from abandonment that we too were just as debased in the eyes of God as these we look down on the most. Wow. This is not where I had previously gone with this. You just cannot leave 2:1 and the "Therefore" it starts with out of the meaning of chapter 1!!! And look at the next few verses, which I think absolutely confirm that this is the way to read these verses. We are just as bad!!! So...is this part of Romans evangelical? A sermon to the lost in Rome? To those "attending church" who are not themselves saved? That seems like a possibility....I mean look at vs 5 - "Because of your hard and impenitent heart..." Can that possibly refer to the saved?
2021-2 - The way I read it today, this paragraph, through vs 11, is about the pretenders in the church of Rome. Both Jew and Greek pretenders. In such a city, such a culture, within the church there were hypocrites, just like today, who condemned others while doing exactly the same things. There were secret drunks, secret adulterers, secret corrupt businessmen. But they were in church every Sunday and so thought they could judge. Paul is telling them that they are worse even than those they judge. He is telling them that they are not saved.
And the kids are up, and it's time for breakfast...so pushing on with the rest of today's reading, thankful for what I learned today.
2025 - Think of those who criticize dresses that are too short, women wearing pants to church, hairstyles...the church people who's judgment gives church people a bad name. Surely we have heard some very unfair, very harsh "judgments" come from these. Are they really better people, or are the entrenched hypocrites that no one is brave enough to call out? It would go down easier if it is these about whom Paul is writing and not me!
2025 - I also think, as mentioned in the first 2021 note, that a lot of this is Paul reminding the church in Rome where they came from. But he is speaking to more than just the previously saved who should be empathetic to those who know nothing better than the lost culture of Rome.
2025 - This is a good passage for study in conjunction with "judge not lest ye be judged". We are not to judge others for the things of which we are also guilty. You cannot come to church hungover and judge alcoholics for drinking. But remember that we cannot call out sin and so purify the church without judging. Or...is that right? Recognizing sin and calling it out is quite a different thing than judging sin in others. The first is purifying. The second is putting ourselves in God's place - judging those whom only He is to judge. And judging others instead of just "iron sharpening iron" is a way we make ourselves better than others by comparison. This is the judging that is never ok.
2022 - Look back at Chapter 1, as Paul is making his introduction:
14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. 15 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. [Rom 1:14-15 ESV]. Now he has to be talking about evangelism here. (2024 - There is more to the gospel than the plan of salvation. We saw that also back in chapter one in the paragraph about "faith to faith". Salvation is only the beginning of the gospel. There is much more to believe.) It was his purpose in life to spread the gospel of Christ. He ALWAYS starts with who Jesus was - the long awaited Messiah, the Son of David, and the Son of God. These are part and parcel of the gospel. In addition to civilized and uncivilized, learned and stupid, he ALSO wants to preach this gospel to YOU in Rome. Even back to his intro in 1:7, he does NOT call them saints. They are loved by God and called to be saints. All three of these words - loved, called, and saints, are adjectives describing those in Rome. They are not verbs. God loves them, and they (some of them) are called. ESV translates it "to be" saints, as in they are not yet saints...They insert "to be" which is most certainly a verb. It is probably more accurately translated "called saints". Those in Rome are "called saints", who have not yet taken action.
2022 - If you continue this line of reasoning, it seems to imply that Paul thought a LOT of people in the church at Rome were really unsaved. There had to be saved people there, else their faith would not be proclaimed throughout the world. But he also wants to reap a harvest there - to bring the lost to Christ.
2022 - Look at this verse:
4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? [Rom 2:4 ESV]. This is written to people who "think" they are doing right things and that because the balance tips in favor of good, God will give them a pass on the bad they continue to do. These are works-oriented Christians. They are substituting "more good words than bad" as Christians for the "ritual" of Judaism, the sacrifices and feasts and such. They see that they no loner are required to sacrifice and obey the 613 rules...but they have not divorced themselves from works as a means to salvation. Like the Pharisees believe they can be perfect before the law, these Christians see "freedom in Christ" as not having to be perfect so much as just being good on balance. Paul says that while it is true that a sin after salvation does not require a ritual to stay saved, it does not in any way mean that sin by a Christian is ok. God's continued mercy toward a sinful Christian ought to make us grateful, submissive and wholly repentant and determined to sin no more. This is what it ought to do. This is NOT the effect it was having on some in Rome - who were likely doing no end of good works for which their faith is proclaimed worldwide. His point is that it is true faith, it is the heart of man, that God looks at, whether there are massive good works or hardly any at all.
2025 - Vs 4b...meant to lead to repentance. Surely we can say with certainty that those who have yet to repent are as yet unsaved. Called perhaps, but not yet saved.
2023 - No...go back...These first chapters are aimed at establishing as fact that man is in dire need of a savior. So Paul sets about establishing that those who reject God spiral downward, eventually being "given over", that is abandoned by God to debase themselves and their obvious created purpose as men and women. They seek to undo God's work at the foundational level. When they get there, all these other crimes against the creator that were listed in vss 29-32. The outline in MSB says verses 1:18-32 are about Unrighteous Gentiles. That is, it is establishing that Gentiles sink so low that they cannot help themselves. And then 2:1 says "Therefore...", you who judge. He switches his audience to the Jewish Christians in Rome. That is, those who might think they can stand outside and talk about how awful these "others" - these Gentiles, these dogs - who commit such sins really are, in passing judgment on these others they condemn themselves because they "practice the very same things"!!! (I struggled with who the "judgers" are in 2:1 . The MSB outline says that 2:1-3:8 are about Unrighteous Jews, where the previous verses were unrighteous Gentiles. I went back and revised this paragraph based on this to see if it makes better sense with that understanding.) Paul is saying that Jews in the church were in as dire need of salvation at the moment of their repentance as are these terrible awful people (Gentiles) that we now judge as hopeless. THAT is his point. Just because they were Jews they still had no standing to look down their noses at even the worst of sinners, because in God's sight, there was/is no difference between Jew and Gentile, not anymore. He was warning them to not be patting themselves on the back for being Jewish Christians, and so much better than the lost Gentiles, but fall on their knees in thanksgiving that even though they are JUST LIKE THEM, God saved them anyway and also! He did not save Jews because they were not as bad as the Gentiles. He saved the Jews because he decided to save them, not because of their heritage.
This is a FB post, finally. I think I did 2:1 before, but not in this way.
2022 - Vs 5:
5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. [Rom 2:5 ESV]. When is the day of wrath? What judgment is also considered to be "the day of wrath"? If you read on through vs 11 there are a lot more details about this judgment Paul references. Vs 6 says it is a judgment of works. Eternal life to those who seek for glory, honor, and immortality. For the self-seeking indulgence in unrighteous, wrath and fury. Terrible tribulation for those who do evil. Glory, honor, and peace for those who do good. So with these clues, what judgment is this?
Both good and evil people will be there, so this is not the bema seat. That takes place in heaven. Vs 16 says that in this judgment, God will judge BY Jesus Christ. "by" is the Greek dia, delta iota alpha. Here is its definition: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act. So it is God's judgment, and Jesus is the "channel" through which He will judge. The only judgment where Jesus does the judging is the pre-millennial judgment. This takes place on earth. This is the sheep and goats. This is a works judgment. The goats go into eternal punishment. All of that fits. But...what about this being "the day of wrath". It has to be a judgment of those who were lost when the rapture occurred, and who, by their faith and works during tgt have been saved, and found worthy to enter the kingdom. These people will all be alive at this judgment.
2023 - But it is SUCH a stretch to think Paul is devoting this much text to a judgment that no one to whom he wrote will ever attend. That Pre-Millennial judgment is a judgment of the living. So have I analyzed to the wrong conclusion and it is either bema or GWT that he references? I surely seem to be missing something important here. Maybe vs 5, as quoted above, is the key. Hard and impenitent hearts belong to the lost. This is not about saved people. (So does that make the analysis above that I thought I could finally post all wrong again? Is Paul really speaking to lost people within the Roman church that he praised just a few verses back? Much more complicated than it seems, unless this is about purifying the Roman church still further by pushing out the judgers who aren't saved anyway. Sure is hard to think it is about that after his compliments to them, and since he does not enumerate their problems at all, but "teaches". What then do those earlier verses teach? Even so, this "presuming on the riches and forbearance" seems to be aimed at unsaved within the church. - NO, it is a warning to arrogant Jews in the church. He is speaking to former Jews here.) Back to the point...when Paul says these will be judged, if they are unsaved, they won't be judged until the GWT. Seems like that fixes a lot of problems with this interpretation.
2023 - The judgment could be that Jesus will pull his own from tgt, and in this way God judges BY Jesus. All those Theos gave to Christos are raised from the dead or changed and brought to heaven, leaving the sinners to receive the wrath of God.
2023 - Paul describes this judgment on the Day of Wrath through vs 10. Glory honor and peace for the good. Eternal life for them. Wrath, fury, tribulation and distress (but not hell?) for the evil. Could we make this about the rapture. About pulling out the saved before wrath begins...or on the FIRST DAY of wrath? The day God decides who will receive eternal life and who will enter the time of his wrath poured out on earth? Could Paul be talking about that? Sure seems like he'd be more to the point about it.
2025 - There is a note in MSB pointing out that the word translated "stubborness" in vs 5 is the Greek word from which we get sclerosis - hardening. As in atherosclerosis. A hardened and unrepentant heart. Can a saved Christian have this? It would seem so, but if we go there, then we must also allow that God's wrath can come down on saved people. The saved are saved from wrath though. I guess it can...there are "sins unto death".
2025 - I still don't know. The context almost requires that in both chapters 1 and 2, Paul is speaking to the same audience, and that audience is the church in Rome, and that necessarily implies that he is talking at all times to the saved, not admonishing some little sub-group of unsaved church members. I just have a really hard time "inserting" another group in here.
2025 - Maybe Paul has noticed a strong tendency for many in the church to elevate their own position in God's eyes as compared to those outside the church. That whole "I am saved and so I only associate with saved people" idea. We "good people" stick together and we want nothing to do with you sinners idea. We got our salvation, and until you get yours, you're on your own. But judging by the wreck that is your life, we don't have much hope for you. Now that...that rings true. Surely a longstanding and very common church attitude, separating itself out and so failing in its primary mission of reaching the lost, even the most wretched of the lost! I like this. I'm going with this.
vvs 6-10 are about works. Vs 6 starts this way:
6 He will render to each one according to his works: [Rom 2:6 ESV]
Obviously, this would be a good verse to grab if you wanted to say that you must keep doing good works to stay saved. Also a good verse if you want to say works are required to be saved. A Judaizer would point to this and say Paul agreed with them about keeping the Law. The text seems to be very precise about how it is the attitude that accompanies the works that makes the difference. The saved do good works so that their reward in heaven will be great. Others - unsaved - do good works as a self-seeking and a quest for earthly recognition and reward. God knows the difference, and whether Jew or Gentile, his wrath or his reward will be based on the attitude.
I am reminded also of the verse in Ezekiel that I believe said the good works of the saved count for them at the judgement. I think even their "pre-salvation" good deeds are counted once they are saved. But for the unsaved, even their good deeds are given no weight whatsoever in judging them. They just don't count at all. Works are rewarded for those who do them as a result of salvation. Works are irrelevant for those who are saved. Sheep and Goats.
Those who know the law well - Jews that Paul is writing to in Rome specifically - will be judged at a standard commensurate with their knowledge of the law. Those who violate Mosaic law in full knowledge of their sin being judged more harshly than those who never knew they weren't supposed to do that in the first place. Both judged, but according to what they knew about God's standards. Paul goes on to say that sometimes the Gentiles do the right thing because their conscience identifies - distinguishes - sinful acts from righteous, even though they have no written law about that particular action. By the same token, Jews, with full access to the law and the prophets, even those who lord it over the less learned and make themselves teachers of the law, turn around and violate the very laws they teach. They are found out, and fulfill the scripture about "The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." Hypocrites bring reproach on all they are associated with. They turn very much good, very many good, into objects of disdain by the way they themselves act. We see it every day.
2025 - Vvs 17-24 though, are aimed 100% directly at the Jews, and is accusatory. It calls out grave hypocrisy. It looks like Paul is talking about converted Jews who use their "freedom in Christ" to sin freely, and quite literally steal, commit adultery, and rob temples as if their freedom allows them to sin with impunity. Are these people saved and Paul is calling them out for their hypocrisy? If so, then there most definitely IS critique of the church in Rome in this book. It is not all roses and complements. How is vs 24 anything but an accusation that the whole church is being defamed by the action of the Christian Jews within that church?
In the last paragraph, vvs 25-29, Paul says that circumcision - a condition of pride among Jews apparently - means nothing. Uncircumcised Gentiles who do the right thing are counted more "circumcised" by God than are circumcised Jews who break the law openly and repeatedly. Those Jews are held to a higher standard because of what they know.
Remember, this book is written to the Jews in the church in Rome (2025 - Actually this statement is false. This book is written to "all those in Rome", by which is implied the entire membership of the church in Rome), and this letter is from a Pharisee. Paul knows precisely what those in Rome have been taught, and he is urging them to maintain the highest possible standard in the most prominent city of the time, because they are being scrutinized, criticized, and demonized for every single indiscretion as to the law. Paul is telling them to step up to the plate and play hard!
2023 - Maybe we should think of this chapter as a warning to the church in Rome of things Paul had seen elsewhere, and he does not want them to fall into the same sort of problems. So he is telling them in the last part of Chapter 2 that being a Jew under the New Covenant does not give you special privileges to go on sinning. In fact, under the New, if you do such things, then the uncircumcised Gentiles are "more" in God's sight than you. So he is heading off the "pride in heritage", the divisions that come from Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, or from circumcision vs uncircumcision. He wants all to be contrite and humbled before God, EQUALLY, with none claiming some special blessings of God that applies only to the Jews. Or in terms of today's (9/25/23) revisions based on the MSB outline, he is pointing out that the Jews are just as unrighteous, and therefore just as needy of a God who will save them. So Paul isn't "accusing" either the Gentiles or the Jews in the Roman church. Not at all. He is pointing out to them just how pitifully incapable they are of helping themselves out of their sin and depravity - which is the SAME, whether Gentile or Jew. The whole world is in this boat.
2025 - Per the introduction, Paul is on his third missionary journey. By this time, heresies were cropping up in some of the churches he'd started, and the Judaizers and false teachers of all sorts were trying to undermine the church for their own enrichment. So in Chapter 2, we can make a case that Paul fully expected, may even have been informed, that the Judaizers were already there and separating the Chosen people from all the Gentiles. Telling the Gentiles that they were not as worthy because of their birth, and that they ought to be submissive to the greater Christians who were formerly Jews. Such people, who would use this racial distinction to elevate themselves in the church hierarchy, would indeed still be like the those indulging in the culture of Rome. Despite their elevated opinion of themselves, they were in fact just as lost as the Gentiles upon whom they look down. Perhaps they were at this time just a small, yet very loud and disruptive, percentage of the church in Rome. Paul is trying to persuade them to true Christian repentance.
2025 - The above works pretty well, except for one thing. There is nothing in the text that clearly indicates a change of audience. We had that phrase "THEREFORE, you have no excuse, EVERYONE of you who passes judgment". Therefore is not a word used to indicate a shift in audience, but the conclusion of what has been said previously to an audience. It seems to me this year that Paul is telling the whole church in Rome that if their salvation is not genuine, they face the same judgment as those given over to their own lusts. The very same judgment as those they see as depraved, worldly, almost unsalvageable human beings. But the same judgement, the same wrath, awaits them all. Being "in church" will not matter. Repentance matters!
2025 - While nothing blatantly points out a change in audience the language of vss 12 to the end of the chapter are hardly universal. Paul is talking to Jews in that church about their behavior, and how it can bring disgrace on the church in the eyes of the Gentiles. There is just too much in these verses that is exclusively Jewish to claim anything else.