In July of 2023, with notes from five annual readings of Revelation all sort of "pushed together", I have undertaken to do a full edit and updating of the notes to what I believe is the best interpretation of these chapters.  I have written it as a sort of "first draft" of what might someday be a book.  As of today, 8/22/23, the first ten chapters of Revelation have been edited.  While I encourage you to read those, I would also discourage you about reading the other chapters until I complete the editing process.

Notes on the Book from the MacArthur Study Bible

The Title of the book is within the book, unlike most books of the Bible.  The word is "apokalupsis" in Greek.  The word is used in several ways in the NT, among them, "an uncovering" or "a disclosure".  It is used to describe Christ's incarnation (Lk 2:32) and his second coming (2Th 1:7 and others), along with several other things.  An interesting observation, which I hadn't thought of before is that Revelation was revealed to John by an angel.  It was an angel speaking with him, showing him things, explaining things.  I think this is also unique in the NT.

John names himself as author of the book four times.  Early tradition is unanimous that the Apostle John wrote the book.  Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian all agree.  Many of the book's earliest readers were still living in the time of Justin Martyr and Irenaeus.  Only John's gospel and Revelation refer to Jesus as the Word.  Rev 1.7 and John 19.37 translate Zk 12.10 differently than elsewhere in the Bible, but they agree with each other.  Only Revelation and John describe Jesus as the Lamb.  So many commonalities indicate that John is the author of both books.

MSB says Revelation was written in the last decade of the first century - 94-96 AD.  Some argue that it was written earlier, during Nero's reign, but MSB disagrees.  Several reasons are given as to why it doesn't make sense for it to have been written earlier.  They are pretty hard to argue with.  Still...there is no mention of 70 AD.  If it was written in 94-96 AD, then nothing it "foretells" looks forward to that cataclysm.   Looking for direct ties between Matthew and Revelation then should take into account that Matthew was before 70 AD - as was Jesus - and Revelation was after.  BUT, perhaps this would explain why John was in Ephesus for so long in his later years.  He may have left or fled Jerusalem in 70 AD, and there was nothing there to go back to.  Additionally, if we find difficulties in resolving Matthew 24 and Revelation, we ought to first try moving the writing of Revelation back to before 70 AD and see if that makes them fit.  

(Note - Many times we see NT books "dated" by whether or not they mention 70 AD.  If they do not, we ALWAYS say that means they were written BEFORE that date.  70 AD is NOT mentioned in Revelation - or any other book John wrote for that matter.  Yet we date all three of his letters AFTER 70 AD.   Well...not quite so cut and dried.  There is no information in 1Jn by which to establish the date of its writing.  There is even less information in 2Jn and 3Jn...except that we think they were written pretty shortly after 1Jn.  1 Jn is "dated" 90-95, per MSB, not because it does not mention 70 AD but because it does not mention the persecution under Domitian "which began about 95 AD.  So, we don't have dates for either Revelation or Johns three letters.  We just really cannot be sure.  So don't be hanging any interpretation on the date it was written!  What about the gospel of John?  Here is the relevant part of MSB's "guess" about that:  "The early church father Iranaeus (AD 130-200, just barely after the crucifixion), was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.  Iranaeus says that on the authority of Polycarp, John wrote this gospel while he lived in Ephesus, and was very advanced in age."  So the life of John, who walked with Jesus, overlaps well into the end of the first century AD.  MSB dates the book in AD 80-90, about 50 years after Jesus' earthly ministry, and before he wrote 1-3 John, or Revelation.  So the "best" information we have on the writings of John are based on hearsay testimony - from a VERY respected source - that puts his gospel in 80-90 AD, and we place all the other books after that.  Good information to keep in mind!)

I am reminded that John's gospel doesn't mention 70 AD either, nor does it have any of the material that was in Matthew 24.  Could that mean that John saw Matthew 24 as being entirely about 70 AD, and then wrote Revelation after that to look out to end times?  I don't "like" that idea, but it ought to be considered.  Or it may just be that John’s gospel was written to explain how the church understood Jesus at the time it was written – say 50 years after the crucifixion.  By that time, as Jesus had predicted in Matthew, there were a lot of false prophets, false Christs and so on.  Many false doctrines were circulating around, undermining this new religion and its churches.  Perhaps John’s gospel is less a biography of Jesus and much more an explanation of Jesus.  And perhaps also, John knew that Revelation was coming.  Certainly God knew that it was and so didn’t inspire John to write about the end times in his gospel.

John addresses the book from Ephesus where he lived to the churches over which he ministered in Asia, but to which he could no longer travel. So he writes to them - the Revelation.  

There is little historical material in Revelation.  It is almost entirely prophetic.  Revelation is "first and foremost a revelation about Jesus Christ".  He is named many names in Revelation, described in many ways.  These are listed in the MSB.  

Under "Interpretive Challenges", MSB says this: "No other NT book poses more serious and difficult interpretive challenges than Revelation."  I guess so!  There are four main "interpretive approaches".
1)  The preterist approach is to interpret it as a description of 1st century events in the Roman Empire.  The book itself though, claims to be prophecy, not history.
2)  The historicist approach views Revelation as a panoramic view of church history from apostolic times to the present - seeing in the symbolism such events as the barbarian invasions of Rome, the rise of the Roman Catholic Church (as well as some individual popes) the emergence of Islam, and the French Revolution.  But this would make the book practically meaningless to the people to whom it claims it is addressed.  It also leads to conflicting interpretations.
3)  The idealist approach interprets Revelation as a timeless depiction of the cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil.  In this view, the book is neither historical allusion nor predictive prophecy.  Taken to its logical conclusion, this view makes Revelation a collection of stories designed to teach spiritual truth.
4)  The futurist approach insists that the events of chapters 6-22 are yet future, and that they symbolically depict actual people and events yet to appear on the world scene.  It describes events surrounding the second coming, the Millennial, and final judgement and the eternal state.  Only this view does justice to the book's claim to be prophecy and allows this book to be translated by the same "rules" as all other books in the Bible.  Obviously, coming last, this is the view the MSB takes of events.

Revelation Chapter 1
The introduction tells us that this book is about future events, but near events.  An angel is sent to tell John about these events.  "He made it known by sending his angel..."  Those who read aloud are blessed.
2022 - Vs 1 makes it clear that this is about events future to John.  If we want to say this book is about 70 AD, we must establish a date for its writing many years before the accepted date.  Failing that, this book is NOT about 70 AD.  Nothing in this book is a reference to pre-70AD events.
2022 - Why is it to be read aloud???  Ahhh...Aloud is not here.  The Greek word for "aloud", whatever it might be, does not appear in either the TR or the mGNT.  It is implied by the fact that both the one who reads and the one who hears are blessed.  You can only hear it if it is read ALOUD.  And that surmising of intent is included in the ESV and several other translations.  It is about a 50/50 mix of those who insert "aloud" and those who do not.  The actual word, though, is not there.  I would leave it out.  My interpretation would be that those who read the book and those who cannot read but only hear are blessed just the same as those who can read.  Maybe that implies still more....

2023 - I think the "aloud" thing is a modern thing.  I really don't think the word should be there.  How is this version any less accurate:
3 Blessed [is] he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time [is] near. [Rev 1:3 NKJV].  Aloud just "inserts" a lot of interpretation into something that is fine just translated.  I do not like this word aloud being in there.

2023 - First verse:
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, [Rev 1:1 ESV].  Look at the wording....God gave this revelation - this apokalupsis - to Jesus, so that Jesus could show what is coming - how this all ends - to his (to Jesus’) servants.  We can always find the genitive case - which sort of shows possession - by changing the order of the words.  So instead of "revelation of Jesus Christ", think "Jesus Christ's revelation".  I checked BLB, and Revelation is nominative - the subject, and both Jesus and Christ are genitive.  As we saw above, apokalupsis is used many ways.  In context, I don't think it means "the life of Christ".  God gave Jesus information about the end so it could be shared.  Perhaps this ties back to Jesus, as a man, saying that only the Father knows the day and hour.  Surely in Matthew 24, Jesus shared some of this revelation, and now, in greater detail, it will be shared with man from Jesus through angels to John to the seven churches.
2023 Later – I don’t think I realized the implication of this even as I wrote the paragraph above.  God told Jesus – in heaven – about these end times events, so Jesus could tell his servants, and Jesus did so by telling an angel who was then sent to tell John, so that John could write it all down and send it out to the churches.
Remember that Jesus says in Mt 24 that even he does not know the day or the hour.  This can only be so of Jesus in the flesh, because Jesus as God definitionally knows all things.  So this is Jesus as man who does not know.  Revelation is what God deems appropriate for Jesus to pass on to man about the end times, but it does NOT mean that God told Jesus things that Jesus did not already know as the resurrected Christ in heaven with the Father.  It is important to make this distinction.

2022 - Ok, going to paste in all of vs 3:
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near." [Rev 1:3 ESV]
Look at that last.  It clearly implies that besides being prophetic, this book is instructional.  There will be lessons to apply in daily life found in this book.

Revelation is written to the seven churches.  These are the churches over which John exercised apostolic leadership.  We saw this in the MSB intro to 1 John.  

2022 - This verse:
"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne," [Rev 1:4 ESV]
Seven churches, seven spirits before the throne.  Perhaps these seven spirits correlate to the seven dominions into which both God and Satan divide both the spiritual and earthly kingdoms.  Perhaps the seven spirits refer to the heavenly angels that supervise the spiritual conflict extant in each dominion?

2023 - Except that all these churches are in Asia and John is writing to them specifically because he has authority over them.  The seven dominions should/must, in my opinion, cover the whole planet.

This verse:
5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood [Rev 1:5 ESV]
He is already, at the time Revelation was given, ruler of kings on earth.  He is King, administering from heaven.  Double amens, in vs 6 and then in vs 7.  This is the greeting to the seven churches.  

2022 - Can't overlook this verse:
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." [Rev 1:7 ESV]
When could this be?  Those who pierced him are dead.  They must be resurrected before they can see him.  Either that or we must divide this verse - and it is an overall introduction, so that is possible - into the second coming, before the Millennial, and the GWT, when all the dead of all the ages of earth stand before that throne.  I would divide it.
2023 – The verb “will see” is in future tense.  That tense does not restrict the “seeing” to a single instance.  It just means that at some time in the future, every human being who has ever lived will see Jesus.  I think that ought to make it clear that we are talking about more than one occasion as “first sight” of Jesus, but also, at the GWT, everyone who ever lived will be present at the same time, and see him simultaneously.

2022 extra - this verse:
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." [Rev 1:8 ESV] I think cross-references to Isa 44:6:  6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. [Isa 44:6 ESV]

Beginning in vs 9, John gives some background about this book.  A voice from heaven speaks to him and tells him to "write what you see" and send it to the seven churches.  So it wasn't just the letters addressing each church he was to send, but the whole content of the book to each of them.  These "orders" are in red.  John turns to see who is speaking, and sees the heavenly Christ among the lampstands.

2022 - Vss 9-20 are John describing the unusual source of what he is writing to them.  This is no ordinary letter, as for example 1,2,3 Jn were, nor even a history of his own inspired writing, as was his gospel.  This book - and what it contains - is unique in that its source is a vision that was given to him, and which he was told to write down and mail out to the churches.  The churches are named specifically.  Does any other book of the Bible claim to have been so directly revealed as Revelation claims to be?  Surely this is unique.
2022 - John looks behind him to see who is speaking.  He sees the seven golden lampstands - again possibly representative of the 7 dominions - possible a lampstand for each church?  But why would there only be seven in that case since there were a lot more than seven churches in the world at the time?  Much more likely they represent the seven dominions of the earth.  All the churches John shepherded were in Asia, but by this time there were churches all over, in many other lands.  If symbolic of the 7 churches, is John's prophecy limited only to the churches in Asia?  I suppose it could be since most of what is to happen occurs in Asia.  I hadn't thought of that before...
2024 - In vs 20, Jesus says specifically that the seven lampstands are the seven churches.  Also that the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.  There is no room for speculation on what these mean.  So in the original vision, Jesus is surrounded by the seven churches - that is relationship - and he has the seven angels in his hand.  If we see the angels as messengers - as the preachers - then those in charge of each church are held in Jesus hand.  No one can pluck them from his hand.  The preachers are sound in all seven churches.  The light of the lamps falls on Jesus, but also shines out from him.  The churches are proclaiming Jesus in the world.  John told us in vs 4 that this book is written TO the seven churches in Asia.  The rest of us read this book incidentally.  We are not direct recipients.  The audience intended ought to be kept in mind.  

2024 - At that time, Asia was a Roman province - NOT a continent - on the West side of modern day Turkey.  It's western coast was Aegean Sea.  Patmos lay in the Aegean just offshore Asia.  The churches are all pretty close together.  I looked at a map of Turkey, and tried to determine what was in the middle of these churches.  There is some interesting geography, but I didn't really see anything that stands out from the background.  Two valleys intersect kind of in the middle area.  Adakoy is in the middle of where they intersect.  This word Adakoy translates into English as "a lot".  Looks mostly residential.  There is no street view or photo circle in the whole place.  More study makes this NOT the center, this is very near Laodicea.  So about a 30 minute pursuit of feral branta.  

2022 - This description of Christ in his glory might be useful in other scenes, for instance Daniel 7.  These characteristics:
Like a son of man.  Form and appearance is human.
Long robe (but doesn't say white)
Golden sash around his chest - like the breastplate of judgement, rather than the over the shoulder sash we think of.
White hair, like wool, like snow.  I always associate this with Theos, but here it is surely about Christos.
Flaming eyes, like fire
Burnished bronze feet
Voice like many waters.
Seven stars in his right hand
Sword from his mouth
Face bright as looking straight at the sun.
That's a lot of things to look for.  This ought to be memorized, compared with the visions of Isaiah and Jeremiah, whom I believe were seeing Theos.  Note that John mentions no throne!  Isaiah and Jeremiah DO mention a throne when speaking of Theos.  So in this vision, Christ is not on a throne...that is quite interesting.

The one in this vision tells John who he is, leaving us no doubt on this point, and confirming that the vision is how Jesus looks today, in heaven:
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. [Rev 1:17-18 ESV]
He did not have white hair during the time after his resurrection, nor did his face shine like the sun.  At least, I don't remember any reference to anything like this in the gospels.  
He says he has the keys of Death and Hades.  Everything, in fact, is now in His hands.  

2022 - We will see Death and Hades mentioned together again at the GWT judgment.  Jesus was given those keys apparently upon his ascension.  I believe we have established elsewhere that Death and Hades contain those who died lost.  It is for Christ to open Death and Hades, and to judge those who are there.  He had this power in John's time.  We will see later that upon his second coming, he receives an earthly dominion.  I feel almost heretical here...implying that Jesus' Kingdom at this time is spiritual only, and his earthly – maybe his physical is a better word - kingdom will only be conveyed at the second coming when he defeats Satan militarily.  And yet...it does explain much.

This verse outlines the book of Revelation:
19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. [Rev 1:19 ESV]  So we would expect things from past, present and future all in this book.  In fact, many outline it just that way, making the letters to the churches the past, then a very brief present, and then it launches into the end times.

The stars in Jesus’ hand are the angels of the seven churches, the lampstands ARE the seven churches.  The word used for “angels” in this verse is “angeloi”.  The BLB outline of Biblical usage has only one entry for this word, as follows:  “a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God”.  Based on this, some say this is about the actual preachers/pastors at each of the seven churches, and not about angels at all.  That is possible I think…but at this point, actual angels seem more likely to me.  Thing is, we are going to see “stars” falling to earth later in Revelation, and these stars are NEVER about men.  ((((Come back and do a word study on both angeloi and aster.))))

2023 - Vs 20 leaves no doubt about what the stars and the lampstands represent in John’s vision of Christ in heaven.  This does not necessarily mean that the seven spirits before the throne are NOT about the seven dominions.  In John’s vision of Christ, there is NO throne and that alone is a good basis for saying the representations are different. Continuing…

2023 - So the letter was, at that time, addressed ONLY to the seven churches in Asia, and we have all the names, we know all the locations.  So let's think about that.  It is written to those seven churches.  Not to the Jews, not to the lost.  The churches will be raptured out - either before the future events begin, or not too awfully far into them.  So we have to wonder why this book at all.  What were the seven churches in Asia supposed to "gain" if the rapture was just around the corner anyway?  And I have to believe John thought the full blown second coming was to be any day.  Hmmm...I hadn't thought of that either.  If John saw these things as taking seven years to occur, and he thought - the book states - that this is all prophecy, he knew the second coming was today plus seven years minimum in the future, right?  And the seven churches would have made that connection also.  Wouldn't they have also wondered what they were supposed to get from this book?  Other than a blessing for reading or hearing it read?  It seems like we ought to start right about here with studying this book.  WHY was it written?  It seems of little use to its recipients doesn't it?  UNLESS the rapture is much later than even I would put it....The later the rapture, the more useful this book...

2023 - later.  In my morning prayers I asked why this book.  And immediately it occurred to me that Genesis and Revelation are the bookends on the story of man and of God's working in the history of man.  Genesis is the beginning of man's story, not the beginning of God's.  Revelation is the end of man's, but not of God's.  God may have done much before us of which we are totally unaware, and God may have plans for what He will do when man is all done.  But the story of man has a beginning and an ending, and our story is all contained from Genesis to Revelation.  THAT is why Revelation!
 

Revelation Chapter 2
2022 - Frankly, these letters to the churches have always been the "boring part" of Revelation.  I have always blasted right through them.  Maybe this year will be different...but it doesn't seem so as I start...

2023 - After reading the notes, and before starting the text, I am going back to see which scene, if either, the description of the speaker to each church is tied.  To clarify, note that each letter begins with something like “To the church at xxxxxx write, “The words of….”.  After “The words of…”, in each case, there is a short description of who is talking.  Now back in chapter 1, vss 4-8 had descriptions of both the Father and the Son.  In these verses, we are given some attributes of Father and Son, but not really physical descriptions.  This verse, for instance:  4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, [Rev 1:4 ESV]. The Father is described as “him who is and who was and who is to come” – so this is about his everlasting presence, but has nothing to do with his physical appearance.  We know this is referencing the Father because vs 5 starts with “and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness”.  Again, Jesus’ appearance is not described, but instead this attribute that he is the faithful witness…sort of a title.  We have descriptions of Father, seven spirits before his throne, and Son.  Father and Son have attributes.  

Then, in vss 12-18, John turns to see who is speaking to him, and we get a description of a scene presumably in heaven.  These verses include a physical description is of Jesus, what he is wearing, and what is in his hands.  The description here is very visual, and is full of symbolism, some of which is explained precisely and some not at all.  

So below, what I am attempting to do is determine whether “The words of…” refers back to the descriptions (titles) in the greeting of vss 4-8 or to the vision of vss 12-18.  And if it refers to vss 4-8, is it about the Father or the Son, or the seven spirits?

First, let’s break up the sections of vss 4-8.  Perhaps this should have been done as we covered Chapter 1, but covering it here instead will give us some immediate usefulness in interpreting the letters to the churches.

1:4a tells us that this letter is from John and to the churches.  Nothing controversial here.  Next, John opens the letters with a salutation conforming to formal Greek correspondence of the time.  He pronounces a blessing on them from the Father, and describes some attributes/titles of the Father, AND, vs 5, also from the Son, and John details Jesus’ actions and current position.  We do get a bit of scene setting in 1:4 when we are told that those seven spirits are before the throne.  God is on the throne, and these seven spirits are before him.  We ought to see these spirits as angels, in my opinion.  Angles are spirits, and the Greek word used here is pneuma.  Note that the details about the Son are not at all visual descriptions.  

Here are the verses:  
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, [Rev 1:4 ESV].  
Then…
5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth…[Rev 1:5a ESV].  

In the next part, again in the fashion of formal Greek correspondence, (Paul always does this), beginning in 5b, John pronounces a blessing on the Son, as follows:
5 …To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. [Rev 1:5-6 ESV].  Here we have a description of the relationship of Christ to those receiving the letter.

Beginning in 1:7, John reminds the churches that Jesus is coming back.   
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. [Rev 1:7 ESV].

And then the very last section, in vs 8, is a further description of the Father and his position:  
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." [Rev 1:8 ESV].  The word for God here is the Greek Theos.  I would note then, that it is the Father is the Alpha and Omega, and it is the Father – or perhaps more accurately the Father ALSO – who is to come.

The vision of the Son that John sees when he turns is in these verses:
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. [Rev 1:12-16 ESV].  This is what the Christ within the vision looked like.  We are told specifically that this vision is of Christ:  18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. [Rev 1:18 ESV].  (A good side study...Doesn't this say that Death and Hades are different places?  Or...maybe death is not about a place...Sticking with the original subject though...).

As I recall it as I write this, the specific addresses to each church include some common phrases:
1.  To the church at xxxxx, write:  Just tells us which church we’re talking about.
2.  “The words of…”, tells us who is speaking to that church.  The words are never from John.  They are from Father, Son or both, and we can tell, for the most part, by whether they are “pulled” from 1:4-8 or from 1:12-16.
3.  “The one who…” is a promise given to each church.
We will look at the second and third these three items in the address to each church.
2024 - There is a fourth.  Why did I leave out the "correction" promised if the problems revealed do not lead to repentance!  I need to include those also!


Ephesus, 2:1-7  

2. The words of "him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands".  These words are from Jesus, as John saw him in heaven, as described in parts of vss 12, 13, and 16.  So the words are from Jesus, as John sees him “currently” in heaven.

3.  To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.  When could this be?  The tree of life is off limits and guarded for now, when will it be available again?  We see this three times in Rev 22:  
2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. ...
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. ...
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. [Rev 22:2, 14, 19 ESV]
So the tree of life “reappears” in the New Jerusalem.  The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven after the Millennial and after the GWT judgment is completed, at the beginning of eternity.  So in summary, Jesus promises the church at Ephesus that if they conquer, they will someday walk in the New Jerusalem.
2024 - This:  5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. [Rev 2:5 ESV].  The lampstand represents the church, arrayed around the Son.  So removal would be banishment from the presence of Jesus?  A loss of closeness?  Remember that their problem was that they lost their first love, they were distanced already from it.  Perhaps this means their distance would increase, and they would drift away into just a social club?

2022 - John writes first to his "home church".  He writes to an angel.  I don't think we are to understand this as a spiritual being.  Angels do not have PO boxes.  We are nowhere told to pray to angels, to appeal to angels, to send messages by angels.  They do not work for us.  So what does angel mean?  Well we did see back in 1:20 that the "seven stars are the angels of the seven churches".  Jesus held these stars in his right hand.  What John is seeing is symbolic, in that the stars represent angels, and the lampstands represent churches.  It says "the stars are..." and "the lampstands are..."  The Greek word translated angels is "angelos".  It is used 186 times in the NT, and is translated straight up as "angels" 179 times.  7 times it is translated messenger.  Three of those seven refer obviously and unambiguously to John the Baptist.  Three others refer obviously to people - not spiritual beings. The one exception is this verse:  "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure." [2Co 12:7 KJV].  So I think the point is that sometimes messenger can absolutely mean angel, as in spiritual being, but it is not in the least unprecedented for it to be used of mortal men.  Any time it is used of men, the context is of a message being carried and/or delivered via the "angelos".  A message is involved, a message is conveyed.  So perhaps each church had sent a "messenger" to the isle of Patmos, perhaps at John's request, and perhaps in the right hand of Christ to insure safe passage in both directions and to endorse the message as scriptural.  The message would need to be written.  If we go all the way back to 1:11, we see that each church was to receive a written account of what John saw.  They all got this.  And additionally, the messengers sent to retrieve these copies also received a message from God through John to return to their specific church.  So we can see these messages as relevant to the time when they were received.  They may have something to do with the church through the ages, in a prophetic sense of things to come, but they also had immediate application in the churches that received them.  
I do not see that the angelos here in Chapter 2 ought to be seen as the pastor of the church at Ephesus.  That word is nowhere used – that I have seen  - as a reference to the pastor of a church.  But we still have that an angel received a message from Jesus to give to John.  That angel was a spiritual being.

This church has tested those who claim authority as apostles and found them to be false.  We know these tests, they were given to us - most of them in 1,2, 3 John!  Test them by scripture, and by their deeds and by their testimony under direct questioning. Perhaps a "committee", like we use to question potential deacons, elders, and pastors.  This would be the way to set that up.  Would it need to be a standing committee, or one chosen according to each situation to be tested?  In any case, it goes on to say they have abandoned the love they had at first.  They were testing, they were enduring, and they were not weary.  

But they abandoned their first love?  Does that mean they were good at all the "rules", but their "youthful passion" in their relationship to Jesus had waned and they were just going through the motions?  Were they were coping as they should, but were no longer "on fire" about the message of Christ?  Still, they hated the Nicolaitans, as did Jesus.  Like what Balaam taught.  Nicholas was an elder but he was an unbeliever and later became apostate.  He was found out at some point.  We know this from the writings of the early church fathers.  Nicholas led the people into rank immorality.  Clement of Alexandria says "They abandoned themselves to pleasure like goats, leading a life of self-indulgence".  Their teaching perverted grace and replaced liberty with license.  2021 - Must have been a lot that went on from this letter - when they hated the Nicolaitans - to the time when Nicholas led the people into rank immorality?  Or was he a "clique" within the church, and they all kept coming, even while they were unwelcome?  Really don't know the details of all that went on here.  Surely these things must have happened while John was away.

2021 - He writes first to Ephesus.  He was given the order back in 1:11, but it is interesting that this was John's "home" church.  

2023 - I have heard sermons about what precisely is meant by abandoning their first love.  As I sit here this Sunday morning, it seems to me that it might be evangelism.  They were doing all sorts of good works in their community.  They were helping their own, helping the poor - really spectacular social justice workers.  But perhaps they were doing it because of earthly philosophy and not as a means of spreading the gospel.  Maybe they were no longer sourcing their efforts in the grace of God, but worked in the name of benevolence.  Reminds me of Methodists, though I know they are not all like that.  Still...this morning, this is how I'm interpreting losing their first love.

2022 - How serious is it if a church loses their "first love"?  We find this warning:  
"Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent." [Rev 2:5 ESV]
Several things...they have fallen.  This is a departure from the proper way.  The word for fall is "pipto", which is a very common word in the NT.  I note especially that this word is used by John in Revelation 20 times, but not once in his letters.  Here are the uses of the word by John elsewhere in Revelation where it goes beyond a physical fall:
"Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."" [Rev 14:8 ESV]
"The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath." [Rev 16:19 ESV]
"they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while." [Rev 17:10 ESV]
"And he called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast." [Rev 18:2 ESV]
Babylon fell.  Kings have fallen.  In these two cases, the fall is from prominence to memory.  
John uses the word 3 times in his gospel, and it just means "fall".  Generally, it is a plain simple straightforward word for fall.  Common uses are "fell at his feet", we see that seed "falls on rocky ground", Eutychus "fell" from a third story window.  So fall means to move from a higher spot to a lower spot.  It is a physical change of location.  
This is the first place in the NT where we see "pipto" used in a symbolic rather than a physical sense.  None of the gospels use it so, but Paul does:
"So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous." [Rom 11:11 ESV].  Paul distinguishes between a stumble and a fall.  These two words have different roots.  So they are about different things.  It seems clear that to fall is a much more serious thing than to stumble, as used here.  I submit that in the same way the Jews had stumbled out of God's special provision and protection but did not fall forever from their place as God's chosen, so the Ephesians had lost their first love.  
If we go with that back to 2:5, then, losing your first love is a more serious problem than getting bored with church services.  Losing your first love has permanent implications.  The lampstand being removed is to be torn from God's sight, put away as if you were never there.  So what exactly does "lost your first love" mean?  Given the word study, it seems to mean that the gospel they were originally taught, the true gospel, had been "left" and they had changed and manipulated it into something that had no effect on them at all.  This was a church population where the unsaved were outnumbering the saved, and the unsaved don't even realize their situation.  They are still ministering and forming committees, and playing as a church in the city softball league, but they are no longer distinctly noticeably different than anyone else – except perhaps in benevolence.  They have eschewed the true gospel and its requirement of Christ as Lord, and are therefore not saved, and in danger of not being a church at all.  I think you have to see it this way because the only way a lampstand that is clearly said to be a church would be removed is if it was no longer a church.  And if a church is a collection of believers, then Ephesus had very few believers.  Perhaps they had all been led into some kind of false gospel by Nicholas.  Maybe this was a huge problem.

Next,
Smyrna, 2:8-11
2. The words of "the first and the last, who died and came to life."  From vs 17 and 18, the Son, within the vision.

3.  The one who conquers, “will not be hurt by the second death.”  MUCH more discussion below, but the short version is that the second death will be a part of the GWT judgment.  So Ephesus was AFTER this judgment, now we back up a bit to what happens during that judgment.

This church was being severely persecuted by the local Jews, so much so that these Jews are labeled a "synagogue of Satan".  Some are about to be thrown into prison.  The reference to ten days means it won't be for long.  Then it says to be faithful unto death...maybe they'll be given 10 days to recant Christianity, and if they don't they die at the end of that time.  Doesn't say that, but could be that I think.  
I don’t see any criticism of this church at all.  
2022 - This letter is so very specific as to what the immediate future holds for this one local church.  Sure, it can be generalized as an encouragement to any church facing external persecution from a powerful source, but to say it is about an age the whole church will go through?  If that is what these letters are about, then they would have been sent to ALL the churches, including those in Rome, in Jerusalem...no, Jerusalem wasn't there anymore..., Ethiopia maybe, and all those churches in Greece!  Corinth would surely have been included.   So no, these messages are specific to those churches at that time, and warnings to us of the various ways Satan may come against a church to destroy it.  I reject the "church history prophesied" interpretation.

2024 - No chastisement is given here.  Note that Smyrna is not indicted for ANY shortcoming, and so there is no need for correction.  They are about to be subjected to severe persecution.  They are to endure.

2022 - a few days later....This verse:
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'" [Rev 2:11 ESV]  So this verse is the reward promised to those at the church in Smyrna, if they conquer.  

What is the second death?  We find that here:  
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. [Rev 20:14 ESV].  This verse from Rev 20 is about the GWT judgment, so those in Smyrna who conquer will not be subject to this judgment AT ALL.  

Who else might be exempt from the second death? This verse from a little earlier in Rev 20:… 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. [Rev 20:6 ESV].  We need to decide if the promise to Smyrna is that they will be included in the first resurrection, or that, like those in the first resurrection, Smyrna’s conquerors will also escape the second death.  Perhaps we can get some clarification by looking at the whole earlier passage from Rev. 20:

2023 - Expanding on this a little, here are the three times in Revelation that we find the term "second death":
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. [Rev 20:4-6 ESV].  First, if we go and look at the context, we see that Rev 20:1-6 are about a judgment that will take place after the second coming, and before the start of the Millennial.  Second, look who is present in this scene.   First, those beheaded for Jesus’ name, second those who did not worship the beast or its image and who didn’t take the mark.  This second item – the mark of the beast refusal – could only have taken place at some point during the 70 Week of Daniel, the last seven years before Christ’s return to assume his physical kingdom on earth.  So these people, that verse 5 tells us came back to life in THE FIRST resurrection, had all been through some or all of trib and great trib (t/gt).  Based on this, I would argue that Smyrna will not be resurrected in the first resurrection of Revelation 20, but like those who are resurrected at that time, Smyrna will escape the second death.  I think the real way to read this is that Smyrna will be part of another whole group, besides the faithful of t/gt, that escape the second death.  That other group will be those who are raptured.  I would use this same argument as a point in making the case that only the church will be raptured, and NOT the OT saints.  The Jews will be resurrected for the GWT judgment – a second resurrection that will include OT saints, OT lost, NT lost, and t/gt survivors who are nevertheless lost.  To reiterate the original point, those in Smyrna who conquer will be raptured out, and like all others who are part of the rapture, they escape the second death.  And lest me let one slip by, NOTE that the rapture and the first resurrection are NOT the same event!

2023 - Or...could we see this as saying that all martyrs from the church age, not just those from tgt, need have no fear of the second death?  He wrote it to a current church, and the told THEM they would not need to worry about the second death.  Does Rev. 20:4-6 allow for such an interpretation?  I read somewhere that the first phrase is vs 4 came to be a sort of "catch all" for those martyred in the early church.  Can't remember where I saw it, but I am certain I read that.  So perhaps this is exactly what it really means.  ALL martyrs for Christ and for God escape the fear of the second death.  But I think the first explanation is very sound, and I believe it is correct.

2024 - So...what if they do not endure?  What if they are not "faithful unto death"?  Do they miss out on the crown of life?  Do they  have to worry about the second death?  Do they lose their salvation?  No!  Of course not!  Just because a reward is promised for success does not mean their will be a forfeiture for failure.  If you come in second, you don't get the gold medal, but you still finished the race.  And even if you drop out injured or unprepared, you still raced.  The losers are not executed, they just don't get a prize.

Pergamum, 2:12-17.

2. The words of " him who has the sharp two-edged sword".  Christ, within the vision, in vs 16.

3.  The one who conquers, “I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.”  So quite a list here this time.  When will this occur?  I cannot find many references.  Perhaps the closest is here:  49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." [Jhn 6:49-51 ESV].  So…rather than the physical manna God gave Israel in the desert, the hidden mana – the living bread – may refer to salvation accomplished by belief in Christ.  MSB says the white stone was given to athletes who won, and was a sort of ticket to the victory celebration after the games.  In like manner, the new name, given by Christ to those who conquer, might be seen as their admission pass into eternal glory.  I really don’t like any of these because unlike the promises to the first two churches, this one is pretty “disconnected” from any specific time frame.
For now, let’s go with this passage as the explanation:  11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. [Rev 19:11-13 ESV].  This is a reference to the second coming of Christ, on a white horse, as he goes to Armageddon to make war after which he will assume his earthly kingdom.  If we take it to mean this, then we still are moving backward in time with each church – from after the GWT, to during the GWT, and this one would take us all the way back to before the Millennial reign.  That seems too much of a jump…but we shall see.

These are faithful Christians, who held fast even when one of their number was martyred.  MSB says probably their pastor, and tradition says he was burned to death inside a brass bull.  So he was roasted.  I cannot imagine such torture.  You'd scream for death to relieve the pain...
But there is something against them.  This church too has the doctrine of Balaam, described above under Ephesus.  They are immoral, the tolerate too much worldly indulgence.  Some who hold to the Nicolaitans are also mentioned.   Both in Pergamum and Ephesus then, these teachings were prevalent enough for John to call them out.  

2023 - These verses:
14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. [Rev 2:14-15 ESV].  This seems to divide those who follow Balaam from those who follow the Nicolaitans.  I comprehend Balaam.  He encouraged the pagans to invite Israel to their sex orgies, and so lure them away from the Law with the pleasures of the flesh.  I see that.  So...I am not sure we ought to be saying that's what the Nicolaitans were doing also.  The language used here contrasts the two, indicating that there had to be some significant differences between them.  The teaching of Balaam and the teaching of the Nicolaitans are serious, but definitely different, problems.



2022 - This vs:
"Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth." [Rev 2:16 ESV].  If one had participated in these doctrines, repentance was required.  Therefore, the doctrines were sinful, and need to be “put away” by the faithful.  Repentance is not just about being sorry for doing something, it includes a resolve to never do that again, to leave it behind.  So does this verse imply that Jesus will himself come and war against the "backsliders" with a deadly sword?  I guess maybe, but it seems much more likely that those who hold these doctrines, again, are unsaved and yet inside the church, and following false teachers there who must surely be propagating these false doctrines.  John has been very specific in his letters about these teachers, and by inference, those who follow them.  These are dangerous to the church, and need to be put out.  They are NOT good people gone astray, but unsaved people undermining the gospel of Jesus Christ.  These are serious deadly problems within these churches.  Satan is very busy inside them.

We ought to see the “war with the sword of my mouth” as possibly the canonization of the writings of the apostles and Paul and all of the New Testament.  This is the sword that was coming in the very near future.

2024 - I agree with the little paragraph above, and add this:  21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. [Rev 19:21 ESV].  Sometimes this phrase means that Christ can kill with a word.  He speaks and it is done.  So this correction at Pergamum may be a promise of death.  We might even expect that if they did not put out the Nicolaitans and Balaamites, that they weren't really saved anyway, and when they are swept up in the coming persecution, they might be killed no matter what they say. The unsaved would surely not endure the persecution.

Thyatira, 2:18-29.
2. The words of “the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze."  "Son of God" does not appear in Chapter 1 anywhere.  Son, capitalized, is entirely new.  The eyes and feet are inside the vision, in vss 14, 15.  
So in these four churches, we find references back to 1:12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18.  At least some phrase from each and every verse that is within the vision, PLUS, we have the introduction of the title “Son of God”, which does not come from either the greeting section or from the vision section.
3.  The one who conquers, “to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron…even as I myself have received authority from my Father.  AND I will give him the morning star.  
This verse:
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [Rev 20:4 ESV].  I note that this verse says judge, not rule, but this scene takes place at the pre-Millennial judgment, after Jesus has defeated Satan at Armageddon..
Now here are three verses about the rod of iron:
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." [Psa 2:9 ESV].  This reads almost exactly like the verse in Revelation, and we see who that Psalm is about in the next verse:
5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, [Rev 12:5 ESV].  The description is of Christ – both in Psalms and Rev 12:5.
15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. [Rev 19:15 ESV].  This verse again is a description of the rider on the white horse, the second coming of Christ to earth, as conquering King.  SO.  In some way, those who conquer in Thyatira, and by extension those in the whole church, will do some of the ruling during the Millennial reign.  So…we can probably apply this to the raptured, and to those in the first resurrection.  
We previously saw that in this verse:
6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. [Rev 20:6 ESV].  So…the first part of this promise references the time just before the Millennial begins, just as the promise to Pergamum seemed to do…but we doubted.  Now we see it again here, at Thyatira.
But what about the second part?  “I will give him the morning star”???  This verse perhaps:
16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." [Rev 22:16 ESV].  There are two other quotes, both in the NT, that talk about “morning star”, but I do not believe they are relevant.  Perhaps in the same way that he was hidden manna – the bread of life – to the church at Pergamum, he will also give himself as the morning star – the guiding star – in the Millennial.

These are doing good works, even more now than at the first.  They have much in their favor.  But they have one Jezebel in their church, and they allow her to stay, and many follow her teachings.  She claims to be a prophetess.  She too is seducing the church with immorality.  Some seem to use the freedom from sin that salvation brings to preach that forgiven sins need not be repented.  They can instead be indulged, because Christ paid the price.  What disrespect of Christ's suffering and death - and the pain our own sins individually caused him - and to think that we can cause him as much pain as we wish, because it's all in the past.  

2023 - Think about such a doctrine.  It essentially is saying that Jesus died on a cross so that we can do whatever we please, so we can indulge in all the things he preached against, so we can enjoy the world he told us to abandon.  How does anyone fall for such a horrendous lie!?!?

It seems God was going to judge this woman himself, and bring trouble to all who have followed her teaching.  This would be done as a lesson to other churches allowing such things.  She was clearly NOT a prophetess if her teaching was in direct contradiction to God's commandments.  Yet...they let her stay.

2022 - Again, a very specific and insidious problem festering inside this church.  I maintain still - since there is nothing in the wording that indicates otherwise - that this Jezebel is a false teacher (Women teachers are prohibited.  She should never have been given a platform in the first place!), proclaiming false doctrine and diverting (that is an excellent word for the effect of all these false teachings!) people from salvation through the true gospel into a false sense of security and freedom through indulgence in sinful things. (2023  - Freedom TO sin substituted for Freedom FROM sin!  Misinterpreted liberty.)  By this time, the letters of Paul were surely circulating.  They knew the doctrine of the apostles concerning sexual immorality - and yet they were listening to it and practicing it.  These were not saved people, but they must have been a large proportion of these churches.  Keep in mind that immoral practices – temple prostitutes of both sexes and things like that, were practice by MANY of the pagan religions of that time.  What Jezebel – and the Balaamites and the Nicolaitans – were doing was incorporating those practices into the worship services of the NT church in these places!  And naturally, the false teachers were doing these things before the NT was canonized.  It was just a letter from some guy claiming to be an apostle at this point.  It was not yet “the Bible”.  So to me, these letters are not about a few "bad seeds", they were about festering rotting sections of the whole apple threatening to corrupt it all.  Big big problems.  These ought to be searched for and rooted out in every true church.  There ought to be a concerted, promoted, and supported "auditing" group charged with searching out false doctrine.  But there is not, so far as I know.

2023 - This verse:
22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, [Rev 2:22 ESV].  We might see this as a disease striking her.  It might be a venereal disease that would quickly spread through all her followers.  That phrase about throwing into great tribulation could just mean a wave of persecution perhaps much more intense than any that had previously come to Thyatira, and since Jezebel and her followers would  have “characterized” that church, they might be singled out for persecution.

2024 - This verse continues:
23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. [Rev 2:23 ESV].  I expect that "children" in this sense is a reference to the disciples of this Jezebel.  The threat here seems to be something similar to what happened to Ananias and Sapphira.  They were struck down as a warning, and that seems to be exactly what was in store for Thyatira if they let Jezebel take over.

2023 - Never noticed this phrase before, in vs 24:  "...who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan...".  I don't think Jezebel, or the Nicolaitans, or the followers of Balaam were promoting their teaching by selling it as "the deep things of Satan".  But I think this verse is telling us that these things were some of Satan's most useful, and therefore most successful strategies against the early church.

 

Revelation Chapter 3

Yesterday, I was convinced that the angels of each church, to whom John’s message to each church is addressed, as in “Rev 2:1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write…” are messengers sent to John on Patmos to receive his message for each church and transport it back.  Messengers.  And that may be so, but today, it also occurs to me that as written, the messages are ADDRESSED to the angels/messengers.  The messages are written TO the angels.  So if we say the angels are men sent from each church to visit with John, why would his letters be addressed to the messengers themselves, and not rather to the church, or to the pastor of each church?  We will see later in Revelation that sometimes "beasts" are men, in charge of a dominion.  We saw yesterday how John the Baptist is called an angel several times, and in that role he has a message to preach.  That lends some credibility to the idea that the seven stars in 1:20, which ARE angels, and in Jesus’ hand, are indeed the pastors of the seven churches – which are depicted as lampstands.  Remember that Rev 1:20 is VISION.  Things represent other things.  This means that maybe, today, I am thinking that all those times I heard a preacher (Dad) say that these angels are probably the pastors of each of the churches...that was probably the right interpretation.  I’m going with that interpretation from here on.

Sardis, 3:1-6

2. The words of “him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars".  The first phrase looks back at vs 4, outside the vision, and the second is within the vision, in vs 16.  So the one who has the seven spirits is the Father.  We conclude this since they are before his throne, the throne of Theos.  The one with the seven stars is the Son.  So the message to Sardis is from both Father and Son, where the previous four churches were addressed by the Son only.  Now isn’t that interesting!  

3.  The one who conquers “will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life.  I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
First there is a lengthy discussion of white garments just below.  Some are those martyred during tgt, and who will be raised in the first resurrection.  Later, all those who return with Christ at his second coming are garbed in white…but the martyrs will not be with them, as they are not yet resurrected.  So I will go with all the white robes in Rev 7:9, where all the raptured of the earth will stand before the throne IN HEAVEN for the bema judgment.  These are the church, all the New Covenant saved.  And if you stand before the throne at the bema, you will never need to worry about hell again, even at the GWT, which comes later.  That last part, where Jesus will confess the conquerors to his Father…At the bema, when they read out our sins, and God asks us “Did you really do that”, Jesus will answer for us, and say “I died for that.  I atoned for that.  He is one of mine.”

"The words of him who has the seven spirits of God, and the seven stars.".  But...in John's earlier vision of Christ there is nothing about the seven spirits of God.  In the KJV "Spirit" is capitalized.  There is only one Holy Spirit though, and there is no capitalization in the ESV.  
This line is key:  2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. [Rev 3:2 ESV].  Jesus, inside the vision, and the one sending this message, notes that God, outside the vision, finds fault with Sardis.  That is why outside and in.

Starts off bad.  Their reputation is good, but in reality, they are just dead.  (2022 - dead is the Greek "nekros".  Not much mistaking the meaning.)  They are urged to wake up and repent.  So they are "asleep" to the gospel that was preached to them.  They are “asleep” to their own sins, to their shortcomings – as a church and as Christians.  There works are not complete means, I think, that they are not really saved.  God does not recognize them as saved.

Also this phrase:
3 …If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. [Rev 3:3b ESV].  This is like the parable of the Ten Virgins also where it says:  
13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour. [Mat 25:13 ESV].
Those virgins were unsaved.  They had waited too long, they were ill-prepared, they lacked enough oil (Holy Spirit) to be invited in when the bridegroom came.  They were in company with the wedding party, they waited “with them” but they were not “of them”.  This is what was going on in Thyatira.

MSB says the church was full of unredeemed, unregenerate people.  Quite different than my idea of lazy Christians.  A few though, are the real deal, and they are promised white robes.  

This church was, I think, more of a social club under the banner of Christianity than it was a church.  To be sure, there were some saved people there.  And those who were saved, despite serving in a dead church that might well cease to exist at any second over some kind of dispute, would never have their names blotted out of the book.  It is not the quality of the church you attend that gets you to heaven, it is "not soiling your garments".  What an interesting phrase.  It might be tempting to add "beyond cleaning again", because we resist saying that anyone is beyond the possibility of salvation.  It says they did not soil them at all.  Not long ago I read something that said sometimes people/nations go so far that there is just no coming back.  I think that was sin so intense that salvation would never be offered.  Perhaps this is what is meant by not soiling the garment.  Perhaps a soul can be so corrupted with some sins as to be unreachable - no that isn't it.  God can forgive any sin.  But that doesn't mean he does forgive them all.  Here is a relevant verse:  
Their deeds do not permit them to return to their God.  For the spirit of whoredom is within them, and they know not the Lord. [Hos 5:4 ESV]   Surely these had garments soiled in the same sense as those in Sardis.  (2023 - In the reading plan, Hosea is read at the same time as these first chapters of Revelation.)

The white garments....Here are all the references in Revelation:
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. [Rev 6:11 ESV].  White robes are about martyrs here.  I believe these are the ones martyred during the 70th week, the ones who will be raised in the first resurrection.
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, ... I believe this is the bema, so all the saved are clothed in white here.
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [Rev 7:9, 13-14 ESV].  Hmm...so they do not all match up.  7:9 and 13 present some problems.  Deal with them when you get there...
14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. [Rev 19:14 ESV].  This is about linen...not just a "regular" robe?

Philadelphia, 3:7-13

2. The words of  “the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens".  All these are brand new, not mentioned in Chapter 1 at all.  Not in the vision, not in the letter.  So who is this?  I think we find it here:  22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. [Isa 22:22 ESV].  There can be little doubt that this is the verse being recalled.  But when I go and read that passage in Isaiah, the words are spoken of a man named Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, who will take the place of a usurper named Shebna.  But as I read it, Eliakim will also fall.  MSB says that as holder of this key, Eliakim chose who would enter the Kings presence.  Then MSB says that Jesus referred to himself in this way in Revelation 3:7, as the one who determines who will enter his earthly kingdom.  And I don’t have an alternate explanation…but it does bother me to pull this out of the middle of that prophecy when I don’t think the last of that prophecy would apply at all.  Here is what happens eventually to the legacy of Eliakim:  23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole honor of his father's house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. 25 In that day, declares the LORD of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way, and it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken." [Isa 22:23-25 ESV].  Perhaps we should think of it in terms of those first titles, the holy one (who will not be allowed to see corruption) and the true one.  These two don’t really apply to Eliakim, but they will to the Son.  So we shall treat these words as coming from Jesus.

2024 - Jesus brought an offer of the kingdom to Israel when he came.  It was all "hanging" on him.  And they killed him.  They broke the peg, and it all came crashing down.  Their hope was in him, but they did not recognize how critical he was to their future.  So in this, Jesus is like Eliakim.  Does this make Eliakim a "type" of Christ?  Well it doesn't go that far really.  The word is not used.  
2024 - Is it significant that this reference is used regarding the church at Philadelphia?  As the "good Jews" in Eliakim's day did indeed look to him, this church in Philadelphia looks to Christ? 

3.  The one who conquers “I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God.  Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.  So we seem to be back now to the time after the GWT judgment, when there will be a new heaven and new earth, there will be a new Temple, and there will be no more changes.

An open door before them.  They have "little power" but remain faithful.  The Jews in the "Synagogue of Satan" will be made to bow before them.  These Jews likely make up the rich elite of the city.  They have all the power, and demean the Christians at least if not outright persecute them.  

This verse:
"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." [Rev 3:10 ESV]
This verse seems to be talking about end times.  I think this is saying that the church will be saved out of wrath.  Wrath begins immediately after the rapture of the church.  It is the rapture that keeps the church from this horrendous time that the Jews – saved Jews – will have to endure.
It is the Jews who will be tried through t/gt.  The whole world will experience those trials.  This promises that the people in Philadelphia will not be there.  So it seems reasonable to argue here that Philadelphia is representative.  The promises to the churches are not ONLY about the times they were living in, but about the kind of believers in the end times that they represent.  This is not about the "church age", or the "Gentile Age", but about the last 7 years.  

Laodicea, Rev 3:14-22.

2. The words of  “the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation".  Amen is outside both vision and letter – but I would say it references the Son.  I found this is BLB about the word:  “The word "amen" is a most remarkable word. It was transliterated directly from the Hebrew into the Greek of the New Testament, then into Latin and into English and many other languages, so that it is practically a universal word. It has been called the best known word in human speech. The word is directly related — in fact, almost identical — to the Hebrew word for "believe" (aman), or faithful. Thus, it came to mean "sure" or "truly", an expression of absolute trust and confidence. — HMM”.  If a person is labeled “THE Amen”, then all these superlatives would apply.  This MUST be about the Son.  "Faithful witness" is from vs 5, outside the vision but clearly about the Son, beginning of creation is outside vision and letter, but is also about the Son.  So these words from the Son.

2024 - There should probably be some discussion of that phrase "the beginning of God's creation".  Jesus did the creating - that is, the Son created.  Jesus began that creation, he was not the first created.  This is a very big deal to have straight. 

3.  The one who conquers “I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”  This seems likely to reference a “sharing” of authority, or an authoritative position.  We have already seen that some will rule and reign with him during the Millennial.  Perhaps this is about that.

Again, information about the vision is added.  Or about the one in the vision, really.  Additional attributes.  We see also that he is the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.  Each of these titles is worth some research, and some expanded explanation.  Especially that last, in that it implies that God created Jesus, but we know that is not the case.  Perhaps the phrase is best understood in the sense that Jesus did the creative work of God.  

The lukewarm church.  These are the sleepers, the drowsy, the "show up late and leave early" ones.  They were apparently wealthy for the most part, and felt no need and consequently no gratitude for the things they did have.  (2022 - The self-sufficient church.  They have all in hand.  Nothing to see here, move along.)  The message to them is to reset their "value system" and look to the things of God for riches instead of resting on worldly wealth.  It is at the door of this church that Jesus stands and knocks.  He was "not needed" there, they had all they could use.  I think.  MSB agrees that this whole church was filled with non-believers.  Not one saved among them.  Yet it was known as a Christian church.  Jesus wants to be a part of the church that bears his name.  This is not about an individual heart, but about a church.

2024 - The "threat" here is that they will be spit out of his mouth.  Like lukewarm/nearly cold coffee. I don't think a lot more needs to be read into that.

And the message for end times believers is...believe, and then seek what will last, rather than the earthly things that will be in such short and desperate supply at that time.  Those who take the mark will have what they need, and kind of "remove" themselves from the struggle for mortal survival during that time.  They can tell themselves they have what they need so they are doing ok.  But they are not ok.  Get your values right.  

I wonder if the seven churches correspond to all the other sevens in Revelation.  The first four seals are judgments on the earth, the last three judgments on mankind (or something along those lines) and this pattern shows up again in the trumpets.  Were the first four churches having worldly problems, and the last four spiritual problems?  Something along those lines could be in here.  

Revelation Chapter 4

We move from "what is" to "what will be".  We see this in 4:1.  John is at once "in the Spirit".  I think this means he was in profound union with Jesus, and his vision is directly revealed.  Same phrase was used in 1:10.  MSB describes it like this:  "This was not a dream.  John was supernaturally transported out of the material world awake - not sleeping - to an experience beyond the normal senses.  The Holy Spirit empowered his senses to perceive revelation from God."

In this chapter, John will describe the throne of God as he sees it IN HEAVEN.  He does this because much of what will occur in the rest of the book of Revelation will be observed by John as he stands in this place.  Because of John’s location IN HEAVEN, and because he is IN THE SPIRIT, John will be able to see supernatural actors in the events to come.  In his description of the throne, John “sees” Theos sitting on the throne and describes him.  John “sees” the four creatures, and he “sees” the 24 elders.  In coming chapters he will be able to “see” the Lamb opening the seals, angels blowing trumpets, and angels pouring out the contents of bowls.  All these things are the means God employs to bring about the end of the world.  These “actions” by supernatural characters that no one on earth can see will have observable effects on the natural, physical world in which men live.  Even so, we need to keep in mind that the events are yet future – a preview of the events as they will play out when the end times actually arrive.  For instance, in Rev 16:2 an angel pours something out of a bowl. Right after that, on earth, people break out in sores.  The people on earth did not see that an angel did something that caused the sores, they just know they now have sores all over them.  So we must keep in mind that supernatural actors doing supernatural things RESULT in natural, physical consequences on the earth.  This is how God has chosen to unfold the last days, and what John sees is a preview of how that will all unfold – as observed from the vicinity of God’s throne in heaven. We will see that the point of view from which various things are described is of vital importance.

Here is how the chapter starts:

This verse:
1 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." [Rev 4:1 ESV].  Several items to note:  First, the word translated door is thyra.  In the KJV it is always translated either door or gate.  No mystery about what this word means.

Second, the door is open “in” heaven.  The word translated “in” is the Greek “en” and is used 2800 times in the KJV.  Over 1900 times it is translated “in”.  Even so, is it “in” as to the place it is located – for instance a door in the city, or a door in Israel, etc, or is it “in” as in what it goes through, as in a door in the wall, or a door in the room.  I note that in the Greek, the phrase used is “ho ouranos”.  “ho” is the definite article, so it actually reads “a door in the heaven”.  I think it is best understood to mean that John could see that heaven existed on the other side of the sky.  He could see things through this door that are normally invisible from the earth. There was a door in heaven.  

Third, the word translated “heaven” is a form of ouranos. This word is translated heaven 268 of the 284 times it appears in the KJV.  Here is the BLB outline of Biblical usage:
1.    the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
1.    the universe, the world
2.    the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
3.    the sidereal or starry heavens
2.    the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings
I think this confirms that the door allowed John to see “beyond the physical sky” into God’s heaven beyond.

Then it gets really interesting.  “Come up here”, “I will show you what is coming”.  So John is going to move from his vantage on earth, looking up through that door into heaven, into heaven itself.  What he describes while there are seen from a heavenly point of view.  He will be seeing events as they are observable from heaven, with heaven’s eyes so to speak.  He will be seeing the agents of heaven going to do things, rather than seeing from the human perspective the things that result on earth from the actions of invisible angels.  The next phrase tells us that John is being shown things that will take place in the future.  Things “after this”.

NOTE ALSO that these words at the end of 4:1 are in red. Someone, somewhere, believes the one speaking is in fact either Theos or Christ.  Why?  Perhaps this:  2022 - The voice John hears in 4:1 sounds like a trumpet.  That is how the voice in 1:9 is described, and later in Chapter 1, this speaker is undoubtedly Jesus Christ.   

Now we look at what John saw as he arrives on the other side of the door in heaven.  2022 - John is commanded to "Come up here", and is immediately given the ability in the Spirit to do so.  When he “goes through the door in heaven”, the first thing he sees when he arrives a throne.  Remember, this is IN heaven NOT on earth.  The throne is occupied.  When we saw Christ in Chapter 1, he was not seated - or at least we are not told that he was.  On this throne, someone is seated.
 
The one on the throne appeared as jasper and carnelian.  Other references to jasper show that there was a jasper in the High Priest's breastplate and also jasper is mentioned as a "covering" for the "King of Tyre" when he was created in Eden.  After Rev. 4 we see jasper as a building material, and there is this:  
"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal." [Rev 21:10-11 ESV].  So what do jasper and carnelian really look like?

Here is what Wikipedia says about carnelian: Carnelian (also spelled cornelian[3]) is a brownish-red mineral commonly used as a semi-precious gemstone. Similar to carnelian is sard,  which is generally harder and darker (the difference is not rigidly  defined, and the two names are often used interchangeably). Both  carnelian and sard are varieties of the silica mineral chalcedony colored by impurities of iron oxide. The color can vary greatly, ranging from pale orange to an intense almost-black coloration. Significant localities include Yanacodo (Peru); Ratnapura (Sri Lanka); and Thailand.[2] It has been found in Indonesia, Brazil, India, Russia (Siberia), and Germany.[citation needed] .  Some translations say sardius instead of carnelian.  Note above that they are essentially the same thing.  

Carnelian and sardius are about the same thing.  Here is what we know about jasper from Wiki:  Jasper, an aggregate of microgranular quartz and/or cryptocrystallinechalcedony and other mineral phases,[1][2] is an opaque,[3] impure variety of silica, usually red, yellow, brown or green in color; and rarely blue. The common red color is due to iron(III)inclusions. Jasper breaks with a smooth surface and is used for ornamentation or as a gemstone. It can be highly polished and is used for items such as vases, seals, and snuff boxes. The specific gravity of jasper is typically 2.5 to 2.9.[4]Jaspillite is a banded-iron-formation rock that often has distinctive bands of jasper.

Jasper, as we know it, is not clear.  It is a very red, very fine-grained rock.  Carnelian is also red.  The primary difference in the two is that Carnelian is translucent, but jasper is opaque.  So let’s go with the idea of a polished “red” coloration, some of which has a sort of glow from the light behind it, and some that is just a flat shiny surface red.  

While jasper can be many colors, sardius is usually red.  It is interesting that it is not the throne itself but the one who sat there that had the appearance of jasper and carnelian.  

A very similar description is used of the new Jerusalem, in Rev 21:11 “having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.”  Clear jasper would indeed be very rare.  

While we are talking about thrones, let’s look at some other descriptions:
First, there is Isaiah's view of God's throne in Isaiah 6:  "In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple
2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew." [Isa 6:1,2 ESV].  There were seraphim – a type of angel with six wings – above the throne.  The throne is near the heavenly temple, and God is wearing a robe.  

Next, we have Ezekiel's vision of God’s the same throne:  "Over the heads of the living creatures there was the likeness of an expanse, shining like awe-inspiring crystal, spread out above their heads." [Eze 1:22 ESV]
"And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance." [Eze 1:26 ESV]
"And upward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him." [Eze 1:27 ESV]
"Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking." [Eze 1:28 ESV]

So from Ezekiel we learn that sometimes either the seraphim are sometimes above the throne and sometimes below, or that the seraphim are above, and another kind of creature is down below the throne.    We get a description of the throne itself.  It is the color of sapphire.  The one on the throne is here described as looking like “enclosed fire” above the waist, and below the waist, fire.  Reddish, orangey, clear as crystal jasper comes to mind.  Glowing jasper perhaps.  It is very bright around the throne – not the kind of “bright” that blinds you in this case, but like the brightness of a sky where you’d see a rainbow.  In that case, the brightness is sourced behind us as we look at the brightness of the rainbow and the clouds.

These three - Isaiah, Ezekiel, and now John, are describing the same scene, each in the language of their time and within the constraints of their experience and vocabulary.  But they are all describing the same throne, the same occupant.  If we put all these visions of the throne of God together, we get amazing consistency, and each description “fits” with the others to get a more and more “physical” idea of what the scene looks like.  

As the description continues, we see that there is an emerald green rainbow “around” the throne.  It is interesting that this word translated “around” is used only three times in the NT, and all three of those are in the same chapter, in verses 3,4 and 8.  The 24 thrones with the elders are arranged “around” the throne in vs 4, and in vs 8, the living creatures have eyes all around and within.

My impression, then, is that the green rainbow surrounds the throne, rather than what we see as an earthly rainbow which we’d picture as a semicircle running from one side, then ABOVE the throne, and down on the other side.  Note that the 24 thrones are also “around” the main throne, as the emerald rainbow is “around” the throne.  I see them both as encircling the throne in the middle.

The next things we see, in verse 4, are 24 lesser thrones around it, with 24 elders seated on them.  They have white robes and golden crowns.  First, we ought to ask why there are 24 of them?  I always thought there must be two from each tribe.  But as you read the Books of Moses, when he calls for the elders, it is always just one from each tribe.  Never two.  MSB says the 24 are not the elders of the tribes, because at this point in the vision, Israel is not yet redeemed.  They are still under God's wrath.  So they don't represent Israel.  

They also don't represent the saints that come out of tribulation since the tribulation has not yet started.  Perhaps these somehow represent the church?  Except that there are seven churches, not 6 or 12 or 24. If we assume this scene is taking place post-rapture, perhaps these are 24 church elders from the church age?  But we have no verse in scripture to tell us that some from the church will rule in heaven.  We know the apostles will judge the 12 tribes, but there are only 12 of them, and that will be during the Millennial, which has not even begun at this point.  

So to my thinking, we have a significant difficulty here in explaining who these  24 elders really are.  And remember - this is not a symbolic vision, this is a door into what heaven actually looks like.  Those 24 lesser thrones and those 24 elders were there.  If they are there "before" the rapture, as I believe, then they are there today.  So again, who are they?  

We have seen references to the 70 elders of Israel in the OT.  So without meaning the head of a tribe, it can be a title given older men who have wisdom and give good advice.  Perhaps these 24 are the elders of heaven.  Perhaps they are not men any more than the four creatures we will see later are men.  Perhaps they are ancient angels, full of experience and wisdom, and perhaps advising lower angels as to the conduct of spiritual warfare.  For me, this is the best available explanation, though it is based on general inference…and on the LACK of contradictory information.  From here on, I will assume that is who these elders are, and just consider this a sort of loose end.  Here are some additional references to the 24 elders in Revelation, none of which, to my thinking, contradict the hypothesis above:

10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, [Rev 4:10 ESV]

8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. ...

14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped. [Rev 5:8, 14 ESV]

16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, [Rev 11:16 ESV]

4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!" [Rev 19:4 ESV]

There are a few other references to one or another of these elders acting singly, but in all these above, what they do is worship Theos at times, and the Lamb at times.  So they could be either men or angels.  I suppose the biggest objection to saying they are angels is that nowhere else in the Bible are angels called elders.  To that objection, I offer these verses:

8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. [Deu 32:8 ESV]
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. [Job 1:6 ESV]
7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? [Job 38:7 ESV]
36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. [Luk 20:36 ESV]
19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. [Rom 8:19 ESV]
So I would make the case that these sons of God are in fact the wisest of the angels, who are therefore put in charge of spiritual goings on in and on the earth.  

So after all the above speculation, I found this, in 1 Chronicles 23 and 24:
4 Since more chief men were found among the sons of Eleazar than among the sons of Ithamar, they organized them under sixteen heads of fathers' houses of the sons of Eleazar, and eight of the sons of Ithamar. [1Ch 24:4 ESV].  This adds up to 24 "head priests".  This was done by David as he set up both priests and Levites to serve in the coming Temple that Solomon would build.  No "chiefs" are named over the 24,000 Levites chosen for service of the Temple, but 24 heads of families - 24 elders - are named over the priests...and I think by inference also over the Levites.  Eleazar and Ithamar are the sons of Aaron, the first High Priest, and all subsequent High Priests are from these lines.  So think about it...24 head priests to serve in the Temple of Solomon, where, in the Holy of Holies we find the Ark of the Covenant, and the mercy seat where God meets men.  24 priests, figuratively surrounding the "seat" of God on earth.  And now, in Revelation, we see 24 elders - chief angels perhaps, I still think that makes sense, but now I see them as angelic priests from the ranks of the angels - surrounding the actual throne of God!  THIS to me is a very compelling argument as to what the 24 elders are about.  But it goes on!

In 1 Chronicles 25 David appoints for service in the Temple 24 groups of 12 that prophesy and sing praises in the temple.  So we again see the number 24.  If we keep looking, we see that David appointed a certain number of Gatekeepers at each gate of the temple.  He assigned them to a certain number of shifts to cover each gate.  Add those up and there are 24 shifts to be covered.  This information is detailed in 1Chr 26:17-18.  24 shifts, every day, covering all the gates of the temple.  This is really starting to HAMMER HOME the reason there are 24 elders around the throne.  Here is another verse:  1 This is the number of the people of Israel, the heads of fathers' houses, the commanders of thousands and hundreds, and their officers who served the king in all matters concerning the divisions that came and went, month after month throughout the year, each division numbering 24,000: [1Ch 27:1 ESV]. 24 thousands in each of the 12 divisions that came and served on a monthly basis. There would have been 24 commanders of 1000's in each group. The elders of those groups if you will.

So we see this number, the 24 elders surrounding the throne of God, reflected in the organization of the temple on the earth.  So we have a very real connection that not only helps us understand why there are 24 elders, but we see that we really should have EXPECTED exactly that many.  I now believe that these elders are the elders among the angels, the wisest, the most priestly, the very best of all the created angels in heaven, surrounding the throne of their creator.  

But why 24?  We still haven’t answered that question, and at this point, I think the answer is so obvious that I feel stupid for not recognizing it sooner.  There are 24 hours in the day!  Priests performed their duties of sacrificing continuously before God.  All day and all night.  Those charged with singing praises in the Temple were to do so continuously.  The 24 shifts of the Gatekeepers covered the gates for the entire day, every day.  And the Temple was guarded, all day, by 24,000 guards.  The symbolism is that the 24 elders are there at the throne in heaven doing exactly what these whom David set up on earth were doing down here.  They continuously worship, honor, praise and sing to God almighty.  THAT is why there are 24 elders before the throne!

Next we see some sound and lighting effects described.  Lightning, rumbling, and peals of thunder.  I think it is very important that we see where these things originate – they are coming “From the throne…”  Look first at this verse:
5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, [Rev 4:5 ESV].  We see very similar descriptive language in other places in Revelation:
5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. [Rev 8:5 ESV]
19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. [Rev 11:19 ESV]
18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. [Rev 16:18 ESV]

It is worth considering that the use of this language after Chapter 4 is to remind us that these things that are happening are sourced at this throne in heaven.  Perhaps when we see lightning and hear thunder we are to look toward this throne, and realize that what is about to happen is coming from that throne.  Maybe this is like trumpets heralding a decree from God.  

Continuing with verse 5 we see: “…and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God," [Rev 4:5 ESV].  We saw these seven spirits back in Rev 1:4, as part of the salutation of this book.  They were also before the throne at that point.  I see these as representing the chief angels, one over each of the seven dominions of God.  I see them as being torches, because these angels were not present at the throne but out doing the business of God in the dominions, supervising, commanding the troops, carrying on the battle in the spiritual realm that we on earth never see.  I am basing this interpretation in great measure on these verses:
13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, ...
20 Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come.
21 But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince. [Dan 10:13, 20-21 ESV].
So here, we have the names of three of the seven dominions.  Persia, Greece, and Israel.  Michael is only one of the chief princes, of which I believe there are seven total.  We can see that Persia is a dominion defined both by Satan, who has a prince that had to be fought, and by God, because THIS angel that comes to talk to Daniel is from that dominion.  As I picture it, we have the throne, the four creatures, the seven torches, and the 24 elders.  That seems very ordered to me, but we really cannot tell from the description where everyone is actually located.

Next, we get this description:  "and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind:" [Rev 4:6 ESV]

There is also this very similar description later in Revelation:  2 And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire--and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. [Rev 15:2 ESV].  Note that this is described as a “sign”, whereas Rev 4:6 is a “real place”.  Glass is static, a sea has constant movement.   In the “sign”, people stand BESIDE the sea of glass.  If it was solid, they could stand ON it.  Note that it is not described as being AROUND the throne but BEFORE it.  Only in front, perhaps limiting direct access to the one upon the throne.

Now we come to the last descriptive passage of the scene.  Four living creatures are also around the throne, one on each side.  They are "full of eyes".  One creature is like a lion, another an ox, the third a man, and the fourth an eagle in flight.  They have six wings, and praise God without ceasing.  These are seraphim - also described in Ezekiel in this verse:  2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. [Isa 6:2 ESV].  These seraphim continually and without ceasing, say “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty.  BUT, it also says that whenever they give glory and honor and thanks, the 24 elders fall down before him, worshiping, and cast their crowns before him.  So while there is continual praise, there is also something else, something special and periodic, that requires a more widespread response.  

Remember, this is Theos on this throne.  God Almighty Jehovah.  This is not Christ.
 

Chapter 4 was entirely description of the scene in heaven.  Chapter 5 has more descriptions, but also describes events that take place in that setting.  These events are witnessed by John first-hand, since he is up there in heaven, and the events are chronological.  John writes down the events in the order that they took place.  I believe we ought to see these things described in Chapter 5 as the very first events of the end times.  I believe those in heaven who see these events begin to unfold will understand that the end of the earth is near, that the 70th week is imminent, that God’s wrath on the earth is about to pour out.

The first thing John tells us about is a scroll, held in the right hand of the one on the throne - the hand of God Himself.  The scroll is sealed with seven seals.  A mighty angel shouts out a challenge asking who is worthy to open the seals.  Note that it is not God himself who asks this, and note that this is not a test of strength, or knowledge, or cunning as you might find in mythical writings.  The question is not “Who is strong enough…”, but “Who is worthy”.  A judgment is implied – the judgment of the one on the throne will determine whether anyone who steps up is actually worthy.  No one at all comes forward.  No one even tries in the face of this challenge.  John is devastated.  

Then one of the 24 elders speaks to him, and tells him the Lion of Judah can open the book.
Vs 5, Titles for the Son, used in heaven:  The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Root of David.

Remember that these events take place in heaven, at the throne.  We know that the seals are about the power of the one who placed them.  To break a seal is to release, to disperse that power over the whole earth.  A seal containing such power can only be broken by one who has power equal to the one who put the seal in place.  That is why no angel, no elder, no seraphim or cherubim nor indeed any archangel comes forward to take the book.  It says no one UNDER the earth could open it either, so even the demons, even Satan was offered the scroll if he had the power to open it.  He does not.  Another Trinitarian argument I would say.

Then there, between the throne and the elders, stands a Lamb as if it had been slain.  The Lamb has 7 horns and 7 eyes.  Several things about this…Look back at the titles given by the Elder.  He says the LION of Judah, and the root of David, and yet the appearance of the Lion is like a Lamb.  So the titles are about position and power and purpose, they are not about appearance.


Here is the verse:
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. [Rev 5:6 ESV]  

First, we get some additional information about the scene.  “between the throne and the four creatures and at the same time among the elders.  So this picture indicates that the 24 elders are nearer the throne than the four creatures.  There is the throne, with the sea of glass in front of it.  Around all of that are the secondary thrones of the 24 elders.  Outside the elders, one on each of the four sides of the throne, are the four seraphim.  We still don’t know exactly where the 7 torches were located.  

Then we get a description of the Lamb.  First, it looks as if it has been slain.  That could mean it has injuries like the ones Christ had after Calvary…his back in tatters from the whips, a spear wound in the side, nail scars in the hooves…or that it had the appearance of a ritual sacrifice, as the lambs used for burnt offerings, and sin offerings.  My guess is that the latter is the more likely.  The Lamb looked as though it had been killed to offer as a sacrifice, which has not yet been placed on the fire of the altar.

Next we see seven horns.  I think it is necessary to spend what may seem like an inordinate amount of time discussing these horns because they show up so often.  We see them many times in both Daniel and again here in Revelation.  What do “horns” represent?  Let’s look at some specifics.

We will approach this by looking at the passages in Daniel and Revelation that contain “horns”:    

First, we have these verses in Daniel 7:
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. [Dan 7:7-8 ESV].  
These verses describe a “terrifying beast”, with 10 horns.  An eleventh horn “grows”, and three of the original horns are grotesquely removed.

Second, in Daniel 8:
3 I raised my eyes and saw, and behold, a ram standing on the bank of the canal. It had two horns, and both horns were high, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. 4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward. No beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great. 5 As I was considering, behold, a male goat came from the west across the face of the whole earth, without touching the ground. And the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. 6 He came to the ram with the two horns, which I had seen standing on the bank of the canal, and he ran at him in his powerful wrath. 7 I saw him come close to the ram, and he was enraged against him and struck the ram and broke his two horns. And the ram had no power to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled on him. And there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power. 8 Then the goat became exceedingly great, but when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and instead of it there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven. [Dan 8:3-8 ESV]  (There is a lot more to this one, other horns and such, but this is, I think, sufficient for our purposes.)

Third, Revelation 5:
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. [Rev 5:6 ESV]

Fourth, in Revelation 12:
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. [Rev 12:3-4 ESV]

And finally, fifth, we have the beast of Revelation 13:
1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. [Rev 13:1-3 ESV]

I think the best place to start is with Daniel 8, because in the last part of that chapter, Gabriel himself explains to Daniel what it all means. Here is Gabriel’s explanation, which we will look at in some detail:
20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
I looked at several translations and they all read about the same.  I also looked at the BLB forward inline, and while this is about the only translation that “works”, I would say that it doesn’t work very well – at least in English.  The interpretation seems to have the singulars and plurals all mixed up.  As for THE ram – just the one ram – THESE (plural) are the kings of Media and Persia.  Seems to me it ought to say “the two horns on the ram are the kings”.  But no translation I found says it that way.  In ancient Hebrew, it may make sense this way, but I don’t count this verse very helpful to us.

21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king. Now this is quite a bit better, though if you go and look at the BLB forward inline, this one is also very confusing.  This verse, in ESV English, is redundant.  How can the goat be the king, and then the horn be the king?  UNLESS, the goat represents all kings of Greece ever, and this horn only represents the very first king.  Here is a different translation that I like a lot better…though that doesn’t mean this one is more correct than ESV:
21 "The shaggy goat [represents] the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king. [Dan 8:21 NASB95].  I like this because it tells us that the animal sporting the horns also represents something.  In this translation, the animal itself is about the “empire”, and the horn is about the first king…or more generally about the human being in charge of the empire.  If we go back to vs 20 with this interpretation, then the ram is the Medo-Persian Empire that conquered Babylon – which would have been still future to Daniel, and as it was organized in those days, there was a King of Media and a King of Persia.  Daniel 8 tells us that one of these kings was “higher”, that is more powerful, than the other king.  That brings us to this verse:

22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power. [Dan 8:20-22 ESV].  This ESV translation makes good sense in our modern English – the best sense we have seen in these verses.  Except that it tells us the first horn – which verse 21 told us was the first king of Greece, a unique person – is replaced by four other horns that represent not kings but kingdoms.

So we have an angel who knows what everything means explaining to Daniel, a very smart man who was not able on his own to understand what all this means, what Daniel’s vision meant, and frankly not doing a great job of it.  We have to consider the possibility that this is SUPPOSED to be unclear.  Maybe we aren’t supposed to understand it all precisely until the time actually arrives, and then it will all make sense.  AND, from Gabriel’s “confusing” explanation of the animals and horns, sometimes representing one thing and other times another thing, we need to see that the symbolism is context sensitive.  After the fact, we know that the Medo-Persian empire had a sort of joint kingship, but that the king of Persia was much stronger.  BUT, neither king, at any time, was particularly notable historically.  By contrast, we understand that Alexander was so unique that he gets his own horn.  Alexander was the reason the goat was so powerful.  But none of the kings who “replaced” Alexander in the four kingdoms that succeeded him was anywhere near as “great” as he was, so the those four horns don’t represent men, but kingdoms that grew out of the Greek empire.

It would be oh so much easier if we had a hard and fast way to look at all these creatures in Daniel and Revelation, but the inescapable fact is that we don’t have that.  What we do have is a number of possibilities – a limited number thank goodness – which we will need to apply according to context.  

So seven dominions, each overseen by an angel, and the seven angels report to Christ, the eighth.  We will see that same setup with Satan's forces.

There is one additional consideration to keep in mind going forward.   The beasts in Daniel are chronologically sequential.  They show the world’s dominant conquering nation in consecutive periods of history.  Therefore, we can look at the animal itself as the civilization “driving” history forward.  

Now let’s get back to the Lamb’s seven horns in Revelation 5.  In context, this Lamb is Jesus Christ – but Jesus is not an animal, so the lamb is also a representation.  If we think of the lamb as representing a kingdom, as did each animal back in Daniel, then the lamb must be the Kingdom of God.  So within the Kingdom of God, do the seven horns represent individual kings or is it more likely that they represent kingdoms?  We know that Christ is king over this kingdom; I would interpret these horns as representing the seven kingdoms – seven dominions – of the Kingdom of God.  These dominions are geographic areas of planet earth, though we have no description of how things are divided.  If the seven horns are dominions, then perhaps the seven eyes – the seven spirits of God – are the chief angels that watch over each dominion.  If we carry this idea of seven dominions a bit further, wouldn't it also make sense that the seven churches correspond also to these seven dominions, and that the descriptions of the problems in each church characterized those specific churches at the time John wrote, yet also describe the prevailing spiritual conditions in each of the seven dominions as the tribulation bears down on the world?  And if we go with this view, then we eliminate the idea that the seven churches are a representation of the church through history – that is, we eliminate the idea that the churches are chronological through history = with Laodicea being the church just before the end times.  

Looking more closely at the seven eyes, note that it says they ARE the seven spirits of God rather than that they represent the seven spirits of God.  We have seen them described this way before.  In Rev 4:5 we have “burning torches WHICH ARE the seven spirits”.  Now we have seven eyes in 5, WHICH ARE the seven spirits of God.  Look back at Rev 1:20 where Jesus is talking and he says the seven stars in his hand ARE the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands ARE the seven churches.  The point here is that we ought not to let our “English” get in the way of correct interpretation.  When Revelation says “ARE”, we very often ought to read “REPRESENT”.  These things ARE a REPRESENTATION of something else.  If the word ARE is used, it means the interpretation is sure.  We are told the seven stars ARE the angels of the seven churches.  We are never told who the 24 elders ARE…therefore they are not a representation but an actual presence in the scene.  

Next, note the contrast between the appearance of the Lamb here in Chapter 5 and the one like a son of man described in 1:12-16.  We know that both of these passages describe Jesus.  John saw that first representation of Christ FROM EARTH, while he was in the Spirit.  But this Lamb in Chapter 5 he sees after he “went up there” to heaven.  We get an idea here of how differently the same “icons” can be represented depending on the point of view.  From earth, Christ is all powerful and has the appearance of a man.  In heaven though, Christ is seen as the slain lamb, depicting his finished work on behalf of mankind.

(((Made good progress on what the horns and such represent.  Even so, the notes below are still pretty jumbled.  Tomorrow, I need to pick up with the passing of the scroll in vs. 7, and move on through the text.  Get off the “interpretation of the vision” and back to exposition of the narrative.)))
(((Go back and point out that Gabriel twice in Luke 1 says he was sent by God, and it was also Gabriel who was sent to Daniel.  Perhaps Gabriel is one of the seven spirits.  Perhaps the seven spirits are all archangels.  
ALSO, since the Lamb looked completely different depending on whether he was seen from heaven or seen from earth, maybe the four creatures also look very different when seen from earth?)))

Moving on with the narrative, we have this verse:
7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. [Rev 5:7 ESV].  This is the primary “action” of chapter 5.  We know the Lamb is Christ, and his taking of the scroll show that he is indeed worthy in the eyes of God.  As we said before, those seals were put there by God, and breaking the seals unleashes God’s power on the earth.  

The passing of the scroll seems to be about a passing of authority.  To here, Christ's kingdom was "not of this world" but over the 7 spiritual dominions.  Perhaps he has waged war with Satan and his forces for 2000 years, maintaining the church, preserving it, and "keeping" all those the Father has given him.  But in this scene, the whole earth –the physical earth - becomes his kingdom in that he now has authority to unleash God’s power upon the earth.  I think we have to read this as the beginning of the end of Satan’s rule on earth.  

Remember these verses:  5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 6 and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. [Luk 4:5-6 ESV].  Note that last line.  Satan claims “ownership” of all authority on earth.  In his response, Jesus does not call Satan a liar, but instead says that authority on earth does not override the first commandment.  So when Jesus takes the scroll, he will have authority to take action on earth that Satan cannot prevent.  

(((Addendum -  24 Elders.  Still a mystery…Maybe it is 3 x 8 instead of 12x2.  3 representing each dominion,  3 reporting directly to the Lamb.  Hmm.  This makes better sense to me than any other explanation I have seen.   

Yes.  I like the way this works.  3x7+3.  Still need to tie it to the table of nations. 70 nations...so it's easy to get 7x10.  That's not hard at all.  Add to it that the nations are all descended from Shem, Ham, and Japheth, so 3 divisions there.  3x7+3.  Have to keep in mind also that 70 people went down to Egypt when Jacob was second only to Pharoah.  Table of nations is Genesis 10.  Yes...there are a lot of possibilities as we look at this.  Thing is, this is only about the world centered in the Middle East.  The 70 nations run from south of Egypt, through Israel and the fertile crescent, into Turkey/Asia.  There is nothing about Germania or France, nothing about China or Russia or Mongolia.  We know from Daniel that it goes as far east as Persia, but it doesn't mention Asia or SE Asia.  And certainly no N and S America or Australia.  But moving on….)))

Once the Lamb steps forward and takes the scroll, the four creatures AND the elders fall down before the Lamb - not the throne this time, but the Lamb - and they sing a NEW song.  This time they praise the Lamb, who died to take away sin, and to ransom people for God, who will reign on the earth.  

Here is the song they sing:  9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, [Rev 5:9 ESV].

A few things to note in this song:  Vss 9, 10 are the praise directed toward the Lamb.  The ESV says he ransomed people...but no, that isn’t really what it says in Greek.  The Greek word for people would be some form of “Anthropos”, but that is not the word used.  The word is pas, which is translated "all" 748 of the 1243 times it is used in the KJV.  The farthest one ought to go in this combination of translation and interpretation is "you ransomed everyone for God".  By just saying people, the "all" concept of this word, which is pretty much always there in every other translation of the word in the KJV, is completely excluded.  Just saying "people" gives no sense of all.  Maybe ESV is just trying to avoid letting this look like some kind of universal salvation, but we know from the rest of the book that it cannot be about that!  Far too many are left on earth to die for ALL to be priests and a kingdom and to reign on the earth.  We know that MANY will be sent to the Lake of Fire.  This word pas is also sometimes translated "whosoever".  I like that word as closest to what John means, but “you ransomed whosoever” doesn’t read very well.  But just because it doesn't fit in English doesn't mean we ought not to understand it that way!  Jesus DID ransom “whosoever believeth in him”.  

2024 - But here is another angle. The Greek looks like this:   ...ἐκ πάσης φυλῆς καὶ γλώσσης καὶ λαοῦ καὶ ἔθνους...  ek is a Greek preposition meaning "out of".  So ek pases would read "out of everyone", or "out of all".  Couldn't it read "With your blood,  you ransomed people out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation"?  That seems to convey the idea a little better.  Hmm...now that I look at it, that's kind of what ESV did with the verse.  In stead of it being every man, it is men from every, which gets all the words in, sort of.  I will say that the choice of the word "people" instead of "everyone", or "all people" has caught my attention two years in a row.  I think this wording reeks of interpretation within current culture rather than strict translation.  Here's how NKJV did it:  
"And have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"  "Us" seems to work very very well.

Note also that there is a second "people" in this verse, and the Greek word used the second time is an entirely different Greek word, “laos”.  This word is used 143 times in the KJV, and every single time it is translated "people".  If "people", and not ALL, is what John meant the first time, why wouldn't he have used laos in both places?  He knew both words, after all  He obviously does it because he wants to contrast that first group – ALL – with the second group – “people.   We can easily see from context that the second “people” is there with tribes, languages, and nations to show that Jesus did not die for Jews alone, but for all the “whosoever’s  on the planet that believe in him.    

After this new song, the angels (a LOT of angels!) join in and say (not sing, say) 12 …"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" [Rev 5:12 ESV].  The verb in this verse, translated “to receive”, is in the Greek aorist infinitive.  We don’t have an aorist tense in English, but what it means in Greek is that the action taking place is unspecified as to time.  That is, the Lamb is worthy to receive – not in the past, not in the present and not in the future, but “in all times”.  He was always worthy, is worthy, and will always be worthy.  In the ESV wording, it looks as if the “receiving” is still out in the future somewhere.  This is not what it means in Greek.

Note that if we make the elders "men", then those elders are the ONLY men, besides John, who are around this throne, this pre-rapture throne.  I call that a pretty good argument that the elders are elder angels, and so need have no correspondence at all to the 12 tribes.  

The vision ends with all creatures, wherever located, giving praise to God and to the Lamb, and then the creatures say Amen and the elders fall down and worship.

These verses:
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" 14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped. [Rev 5:13-14 ESV]  Compare this verse with these verses:  9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. [Phl 2:9-11 ESV]  If these verses in Philippians are about this scene in Revelation 5, then the first fulfillment of this verse would be just before the Tribulation period begins.  

Except that…the lost will not praise him at this time, surely.  Many of them won't even at the end of Great Trib.  So this vision must look forward, past all the end times events, to the New Heaven and New Earth?  But...what about those in hell...at this time or any time?  Will they praise him also?  Will they finally realize - if only for an instant - that God is true and just and their fate is well earned?  If so, this would have to be when time is no more.  MSB does not address this question, just says that the places are not meant to divide the universe into three divisions, but is a Biblical expression meaning "the universe as a whole and all that is in it".  This is probably a better approach than trying to figure out when “every tongue will confess”.  Because really, they won’t. 

First Five Seals:

Vs 1 says "Now I watched...".  John is still in heaven.  We are still observing events from that vantage.

In this chapter, the narration of events continues.  We saw in Chapter 5 that the Lamb received a scroll with seven seals from the one on the throne, from Theos.  Now in Chapter 6, we see the seals broken open, one at a time.  Remember that the scroll cannot be unrolled until all seven are broken.  This may be important later, and we ought to especially note events following the breaking of the seventh seal.  After all, it makes no sense to seal an empty scroll with seven seals.  There has to be something written in there.

John MacArthur’s book, “Because the Time is Near”, says the seven seals parallel Jesus' chronology given in Matthew 24.  This is a common position for those who believe the rapture comes before the Tribulation begins.  I disagree that the seals parallel all of Matthew 24 as a general statement.  I don't think Matthew 24 does exactly that.  

There are portions of Matthew 24 that tie directly to Revelation 6 – places where the two chapters are firmly linked in describing the same events - and we will look closely at those verses.  But Matthew 24 has other material also.  There is no reason really for John to just repeat what Jesus has already said.  John had read Matthew 24, and certainly had his own copy of it.  So Revelation reveals additional details.

Next, my interpretation of the seal judgments is built on the belief that the Rapture occurs within the Sixth Seal.  I also believe it can be established that the Rapture occurs right in the middle of the 70th week.  I do not like the terms Trib and Great Trib because of the confusion the second one causes with Matthew 24:21 where Jesus uses the term “great tribulation” in a very different sense.  However, as long as we understand The Tribulation and The Great Tribulation to be externally generated references to the 3 ½ years of the 70th and the last 3 ½ years of the 70th, respectively, I am fine with using them.  
((I intend to bring those notes back here, and establish what the overall time line looks like right here at the first.))

My "working theory" as I write this is that the key to understanding the book of Revelation is in the perspective from which described events are viewed.  To this point, I have made a “big deal” of the fact that John is in heaven, and he is seeing what things look like from “up there”.  He will be standing in heaven as the seals are opened, and he will be observing what happens IN HEAVEN as each seal is opened.  He sometimes elaborates a bit on how these heavenly events will affect the earth – and I will speculate on that at length – but we must always keep in mind the perspective of the writer.  

To restate, the seven seals described in Revelations 6 are what events looked like to John as viewed from heaven.  There will be other events that are viewed from earth.  For example, the “differences” noted between Matthew 24, where Jesus tells his followers on earth what to expect there, and Revelation 6 where John sees events that occur in heaven during the same time period, can be explained by the different “viewpoints” of the descriptions.  So in this case, we have the same events described first from one point of view and then from the other. We will keep a close watch for such shifts in perspective.  

And one last preparatory note…In BTN (Because the Time is Near), MacArthur says that the first four seals occur during the first half of the 70th week, the fifth seal is a transitioning from first half to last, and the sixth and the seventh seal - in fact the rest of Revelation - occur in the second half of the 70th week.  I agree on the first four, but I put the fifth firmly in the first half also, along with SOME of the sixth.  The latter part of the sixth and the seventh I would put in the last half.  With that established, here we go…

THE FIRST SEAL – Rev 6:1,2
1 Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer. [Rev 6:1-2 ESV]

Jesus, as the Lamb, opens the first seal.  The scroll with the seals was handed to Jesus by the Father, but Jesus is the one unleashing these things as judgment on the earth.  Remember that the earth is as it was in the days of Noah.  There are very few "good people" left on the entire planet.

We often hear this First Seal described as a rider with a bow but no arrows.  This is done in order to identify the rider as the one we call the Antichrist.  (I do not like that name, and believe it is misapplied.  So for the remainder of this document, I will refer to the “Antichrist” as the Man of Lawlessness (MoL), or the Son of Perdition (SoP)).  Why this interpretation?  Because of these verses in Daniel: 23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise. 24 His power shall be great--but not by his own power; and he shall cause fearful destruction and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people who are the saints. [Dan 8:23-24 ESV].  The phrase “not by his own power” is interpreted by many to mean he does not rise through war but by cunning and intrigue.  Therefore, since the rider on the white horse has no sword, but only a bow without any arrows, he must conquer without war.  

Here is the first place where it is important to remember that John is describing the heavenly view of this horse and rider.  I think what we have here in the four horsemen we are about to see are angels, empowered to carry out the "harm" bound up in each of the seven seals.  I get this from Rev 7:2:  2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, [Rev 7:2 ESV].  And we know this reference to “the four angels” is based on this verse:  8 …And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. [Rev 6:8 ESV].  This verse comes after the introduction of the fourth horse and rider.  This sequence makes it very clear that the riders are all angels, empowered to harm the earth.  This rider on a white horse is therefore the first of the four angels, sent from heaven, where John is observing.  This is NOT the MoL himself coming down from heaven.  The MoL is a man, and earth is his origin.  The horse and rider are real – a real angel on a real horse, and they are sent from heaven to initiate and execute God’s will on earth.  Now that we know who this angel is, let’s look at what he does.

This first rider is about conquering and to conquer.  I do not think this angel is personally going to start up battles with earthly governments, kings, presidents and such.  I think his power will be to "push" world governments toward war with each other.  Think of this angel as the “spirit” of war as a solution to national problems.  Perhaps he will create a worldwide mindset that embraces a sort of latter day imperialism?  Perhaps acquiring diminishing resources in the name of “clear and present danger to our nation” will become an acceptable justification to make war on the neighbors?  This rider will somehow plant the irresistible idea of conquest in the minds of those ruling on earth.  On earth, what we will see is that wars start to kick off everywhere as governments try to gather the resources that they need to stay in power, to feed their people, to secure energy supplies.  This will destabilize the world, and is the first step in creating a situation so chaotic that the promises of stability and peace made by the MoL will be irresistible, and he will be rushed into power.

The rider of the first horse is given a crown.  It does not say that he wears it.  Could be he is given the crown so that he can “award” it to whomever he wills.  It might also be that the crown tells us that the wars that begin to break out on earth will be wars of conquest, where the winner rules over the losers.  We haven’t seen war like that in a long time.  And it might be that the angel is taking this crown to the MoL, as head of all nations.  This would show that the power of the MoL is awarded to him from heaven.  He is therefore a part of heaven’s plan for the end.  We cannot be positive about this, but we do know that Kings wear crowns, and that this crown comes from heaven itself.  We also know that none of the other riders are given a crown. This interpretation makes sense if we think about the kind of circumstances which might prompt the whole world to unite under one ruler.  Perhaps these first four seals kind of “set the scene” for the entrance of the MoL as a false “savior” of the planet?


THE SECOND SEAL – Rev: 6:3,4.
3 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword. [Rev 6:3-4 ESV]

He rider in the Second Seal will turn "man against his brother".  It is tempting to link this to the wars of the white horse rider.  However, it could also be about a worldwide breakdown of law and order such that neighbors kill neighbors, or maybe cities have internal rebellions.  Think race riots, class riots, environmentalists vs fossil fuel enthusiasts.  Think black vs white, gay vs straight and even male vs female.  Almost anything could cause bloodshed.  We're seeing some of that sort of thing now...just imagine these things amplified by the actions of an angel sent to earth for that specific purpose.  I think the best interpretation is a breakdown of law and order.  Perhaps this will all be aggravated by shortages resulting from the wars, which require ever increasing resources confiscated from the public.  Imagine the kind of situation preppers are always talking about where it is “every man for himself and the rest of you can starve” kind of a situation.  Think of a situation where 911 doesn’t work, where there is no law enforcement of any kind, no rescue.  A world where the strongest and the best-armed are the ones in charge.  Complete lawlessness.

THIRD SEAL – Rev. 6:5-6:
5 When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!" [Rev 6:5-6 ESV]

In the Third Seal we see starvation and shortages following the worldwide conflicts and the breakdown of law and order.  A day’s wages will feed one grown man for one day.  If he has a family, he will need to buy barley - not nearly as nutritious but more volume - just so his wife and children will have some kind of food, so they can put something in their stomach.  The lower wages imply that widespread wars and the breakdown of the rule of law have undone supply lines.  Economies have shrunk to local size.  There is no more interstate commerce much less global commerce.  So the diminished scale of the economy also diminishes the amount of labor needed, and more workers than work result in subsistence wages for all.  However, the oil and wine are still intact.  Think of these as luxuries, which will still be available to the very rich and/or to the well-connected.  Naturally, this kind of inequity will fuel anger that will result in still more violence, anger, and rage in a time when there is very little law and order.  Civilization as we know it will continue to fall apart.

FOURTH SEAL – Rev 6:7-8:
7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. [Rev 6:7-8 ESV]

The Fourth Seal releases a rider on a pale horse.  We have previously seen this Angel of Death in the Old Testament.  He was seen in Egypt, and again in Judah during David's reign.  Once the Death Angel passes, Hades will have a lot of new faces.  Power is given to these four - not just to Death and Hades - to kill 25% of the earth with sword, hunger, pestilence and wild beasts.  The cumulative results of war, conflict and starvation will ultimately reduce the world's population by a fourth.  

What is the significance of “sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts”?  Turns out these four things have shown up before, in the Old Testament.  Here are the verses:

17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will rob you of your children. Pestilence and blood shall pass through you, and I will bring the sword upon you. I am the LORD; I have spoken." [Eze 5:17 ESV]

21 "For thus says the Lord GOD: How much more when I send upon Jerusalem my four disastrous acts of judgment, sword, famine, wild beasts, and pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast! [Eze 14:21 ESV]

27 Say this to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: As I live, surely those who are in the waste places shall fall by the sword, and whoever is in the open field I will give to the beasts to be devoured, and those who are in strongholds and in caves shall die by pestilence. [Eze 33:27 ESV].

The verses in Ezekiel are talking about the imminent fall of Jerusalem.  Here was the pronouncement from God, a little earlier in Ezekiel 5:  7 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you are more turbulent than the nations that are all around you, and have not walked in my statutes or obeyed my rules, and have not even acted according to the rules of the nations that are all around you, 8 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, even I, am against you. And I will execute judgments in your midst in the sight of the nations. [Eze 5:7-8 ESV].  We see that in Ezekiel, God is just done with them.  And then in 5:17 and the other verses above, we see that these events take place, they are SENT, after God has run out of patience, after all possibility of repentance has passed, and wrath must come.  So these same four things God sent in Ezekiel as signs that His patience had run out will be seen again at the end of the age preliminary to the unleashing of God’s wrath against the whole world.  This is what the first four seals are all about.
 

2024 - It is interesting that the first four seals are all about what happens on the earth, and that each is mentioned by a different "living creature", of which there were only four.  One for each of the cardinal directions.  The whole earth is recipient of the effects of these seals.  Remember the same four in Ezekiel who's purpose was to go from the throne to the earth, carrying out God's own commands.  These are the same four I think.

Let’s step aside for a moment, out of the chronology of Revelation 6 and think about the bigger picture here.  We see that previously God has used these four acts as the beginning of unavoidable judgment.  We see in Revelation that they mean the very same thing.  What if these first four seals are in fact the final preliminaries to the 70th week of Daniel?  What if they are not actually "in" the week?  What would be the implications of that?  Well first, that would mean that the first four seals are not part of the tribulation period.  It would make them preliminary, but irreversible.  Second, if you are convinced that the rapture happens before the tribulation, then a case – a very good case – can be made that the first four seals, at least, occur BEFORE the rapture AND before the tribulation.  If we reckon things that way, we could accurately say that the church will go through at least the first four seals but still not be here for The Tribulation.  

Remember that this whole tribulation/great tribulation designation is man-made.  There is nothing in the Bible that labels the first half of the seventieth week “Tribulation”, and then the last half of that week “Great Tribulation”.  We will see that the only place in the New Testament that the term “great tribulation” is even used is in Matthew 24:21, where events that occur BEFORE the rapture are in view. I offer this “redefinition” as a possible reconciliation of the Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib rapture positions.  I am saying they may BOTH be correct, if we get our terms defined correctly.  We ought to keep this possibility in mind as we continue.

We can also note that through these first four seals, there has been nothing that we might interpret as the appearance of the MoL.  This is important because of two scriptures that we should probably mention at this point:
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [2Th 2:3 ESV].  In this very familiar and oft quoted passage Paul is telling the Thessalonians  that the rapture WILL NOT OCCUR until the MoL is revealed.  I interpret “revealed” to mean that the church will recognize him for who he is and for what his appearance means.  Also this verse:
15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), [Mat 24:15 ESV].  In this passage, from verses 15 to 28, Jesus describes for his inner circle the events that occur just before the rapture.

The point to be made here is that the MoL, the Antichrist famed in eschatological speculation for as long as we can remember, WILL BE, and in fact MUST BE on the scene BEFORE the rapture.  And so far, through these first four seals, we have had no hint of his appearance, though we have speculated that the time is now ripe for his appearance.  That is to say that based on the kinds of things happening on the whole earth, we can see that these first four seals have created the kind of economic and political instability that begs for “a deliverer” to arise.  A “savior” even.  So I think he will be revealed right along here.  Also, remember the POV of the description of the seals - this is how it all looks from heaven.  The “view” from earth has not yet been described.  

At this point, I think we might as well admit that the revealing of the MoL is not described anywhere in the seals.  We simply are not told exactly where he is recognized.  Even so, we will see as we continue that we are given some very concrete timestamps that will allow us to say “this happens before the MoL is revealed”, or “this happens after the MoL is revealed”.  

Now back to the Fourth Seal…

At this point, we have built a case that posits a world encompassed by wars in all quarters and ripe for consolidation under one government if that will bring relief from rampant death and destruction.  The red horse of the Fourth Seal runs wild.  Rule of law has broken down, agriculture is in ruins.  The world economy as we know it has collapsed, and local regions are on their own.  Wages have collapse and poverty has increased dramatically world-wide.  The violence isn't just nation vs nation, but neighbor vs neighbor.  There will be no peace or safety anywhere.  People will become survivalists in such a time, when there is just not enough order to maintain supply lines or carry on normal business.  It will be every man for himself.  Food distribution will break down and what little food there is will be controlled by – owned by – the governments or whatever mob happens to be in power locally.  Only the strong will eat.  Most will go hungry.  Because of all this violence, lack of law enforcement, and breakdown of food distribution, millions will die - violently, from war, from starvation, from disease, and - strangely to me - from wild animals.  

As a result of this chaotic situation 25% of the world's population will die.  If it all started today, we are talking about 2 billion dead bodies.  Try to get your head around that number…these deaths will occur over a protracted period of time – and by inference the first four seals will last for an extended period.  I think the angel in Rev. 7:2b is calling out to these four riders before they are done with their work.  This implies that they are not yet finished with their work even after the sixth seal.  They are still busy, and that angel in 7:2b asks them to hold up for a bit until he can get the 144,000 sealed and marked.  

Note also that these first four seals - the four horsemen - are listed out in rapid order.  John covers all four in a mere 8 verses.  It seems to me that these four build on each other.  The conqueror starts things off, and he is still at work when the red horse arrives and begins to break down law and order.  The famine of the third seal then lays over – results from – the first two.  They all build on each other and by the fourth, all are active together, amplifying and accelerating the breakdown of infrastructure.   

Compare this to events in Germany after the First World War  Conditions were so terrible that people would flock to anyone who promised better times, more security, more personal safety, and regular meals.  As the first four seals progress conditions will be ripe for a "king" to emerge and be ruler of the whole world.  Think of a political genius who maneuvers his way to the top of the hierarchy – not by winning battles and wars, but by intimidation and cruelty.  That’s how Hitler did it, too.  I believe that a world government will be organized into this chaos, and from that government, the MoL will emerge.  Then and only then can the rapture take place.  

SUMMARY OF FIRST FOUR SEALS AS OF 2023 -
I think the idea that they come from heaven riding on these horses means the riders are angels sent to carry out the events sealed in each seal.  We will see confirmation of this in Rev 7:2.  I think it is important to remember that these events happen as the seals are broken, but in no sense has the book itself yet been opened.  I don't think the seals are entirely consecutive.  I think they will all have some or a lot of overlap.  I think some seals are a consequence of previous seals.  The POV is heaven.  We see the angels sent out to do what the seals released.  I do NOT think there will be a world ruler trying to assert power, or at least not until the very end of all this.  I believe we will be having wars and rumors of wars, there will be areas of pestilence and starvation, I believe that order will break down so completely that wild animals are killing people - perhaps people out in the bush scavenging because they have no food to buy.  I believe these first four seals are about a world going into turmoil, anarchy, want, and death, accelerating in both frequency and intensity.  These are the final stages of labor.  The contractions are right on top of one another.  The world is looking for a "savior" to pull them out of this craziness.  Who might that be?

Fifth Seal – Rev. 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. [Rev 6:9-11 ESV]

The results of opening this seal are quite different than anything that has gone before.  When this seal is opened we see the altar in heaven and the souls of those previously martyred under that altar.  This whole scene is in heaven, and there seems to be no implication of events on earth OTHER THAN the assurance that more martyrs are coming.  

This is the first time the word altar has been used in Revelation.  It tells us that there is a Temple in heaven also – likely the temple after which the earthly temple of Israel was modeled – and it has an altar on which sacrifices are offered.  

Why would the martyrs be UNDER the altar?  The Greek word always means exactly that – under, on the bottom, that sort of thing.  We know from the Old Testament that the altar had a sort of “grating” as it’s floor, and the ashes of the animals sacrificed could fall through that and so be more easily gathered and removed later.  So the picture here in heaven seems to be that having sacrificed their lives for God, they are now under the altar – picture ashes – and confined there perhaps until the appropriate time for their release.  

Now think about that.  Martyrs hold to their faith in the face of death.  IF the rapture has already occurred, and all the saved have been removed, then who is left to be martyred?  You would have to say that some will be saved even during trib and great trib, and the verse says that God’s vengeance DOES NOT BEGIN until ALL who will be martyred have been martyred.  

To take this position – that the rapture has already occurred at the Fifth Seal is to say that there will be no vengeance on behalf of the martyr’s until the very end of great tribulation – assuming that people can be saved right up until the second coming of Jesus at the end of great tribulation.  Does that really make any sense?  After all, don’t we all agree that the Jews are going to be coming home in vast numbers during Tribulation/Great Tribulationt?  Don’t we all believe their coming home equates to their salvation?  Won’t they stand before the earthly throne of Christ at the beginning of the Millennial for judgment?  And we KNOW that at this judgment some will go into the Millennial to rule and reign with Christ.  The only other alternative to explain this verse is that there will be NO MORE MARTYRS during trib and great trib, even though some will be saved.  That is saying that the MoL won’t be able to kill any of the faithful returning Jews during tgt?  I submit that none of this will fly.

Now, think about it the other way.  What if the rapture has not yet occurred at the Fifth Seal.  The MoL has come to power in here somewhere, and he is pursuing Christians to put them to death.  We have these verses from Matthew 24:  15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ... 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. [Mat 24:15-16, 21-22 ESV].  Clearly, people will be dying during this period AFTER appearance of the MoL, and BEFORE the rapture.  We can be VERY CERTAIN that the rapture has not occurred during the verses above because we know that it DOES occur in a later verse in Matthew 24, here:  31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Mat 24:31 ESV].  

To summarize this very important point, there are three possibilities, two for the post-rapture position and one for the pre-rapture position.  Either God’s vengeance on behalf of the martyrs under the altar does not begin until the end of Great Tribulation, or there will be no martyr’s at all after the rapture, or third, the rapture has NOT OCCURRED YET at the Fifth Seal.  The possibility we choose is a very critical decision here.

And there is yet one more related point.  In response to their questions, the martyrs are given white robes…but not crowns.  That is, these have as yet received no reward in heaven for their sacrifice.  At the bema judgment, crowns will be awarded.  The bema cannot take place until after the rapture.  Therefore, the rapture cannot yet have occurred at the opening of the Fifth Seal...or these martyrs would already have their crowns.

Let’s move on to another important point, about just who these martyrs are, rather than about when they ask their question.  We want to know whether these martyrs go all the way back to Abel or whether only church age martyrs are included.  Note that they are told to wait for their fellow servants and brothers.  We might count as significant that they are not told to wait for more prophets to join them – prophet being the usual term for OT martyrs.  While not a strong point, I think brothers and fellow servants imply others from the church age.  I would also note that these others will be killed as they have been.  NT martyrs are killed for the name of Christ, because the world hates them as it hated him.  Old Testament martyrs were more often about serving God rather than some false god or idol, not just for belief.  Again, not a strong point, but “another” point.

I think these martyrs are all martyrs of the church age.  I do not think they are OT martyrs. The church is handled differently and the church age must end before God turns back to deal with his chosen people.  The church age is sort of “inserted” in history.  The OT prophets didn’t see it or recognize its significance.  In simplest terms, the church age runs from Pentecost to the rapture.  Interpreted this way, the martyrs of the Fifth Seal are told to wait until those in the church who are to die before the rapture have finished their work.  This puts a definite period to how long the martyrs in heaven must wait.  The church age martyrs still to die are those from the great tribulation that runs from Matthew 24:15-31, from the Abomination of Desolation to the gathering of the elect.  The spiritual kingdom on earth established by the New Covenant must be completed, and then the physical promises to Israel will begin to play out.  AFTER all those from the New Covenant are raptured out.

Many of the pre-trib rapture position tie this Fifth Seal to Matt 24:9, which says 9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. [Mat 24:9 ESV].  The truth is that periods of great persecution have occurred many times in history.  It most certainly happened in Nero's time, just prior to 70 AD, and for years after.  And it also happened in Russia during the pogroms and in Germany during WW2.  I can agree that each of these persecutions was as bad – if not worse – than what came before.  We should at least consider that the verses in Matt 24, at least through vs 9, are ABOUT 70 AD, and not the end times.  They sure seem to me to fit better if that is what they mean.  

I disagree that the Fifth Seal ties to Matt 24:9.  Instead I think it is tied here, in verses we have seen before:  15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ... 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [Mat 24:15-16, 21 ESV].  Here, Jesus is telling his disciples that THEY WILL SEE the abomination of desolation and recognize it for who and what it is, and that when they do, they need to run for the hills.  Why?  Because they are going to be aggressively, wildly, brutally pursued and put to death – martyred – because they follow Christ.  It is this time of persecution that Jesus labels “great tribulation”, and it is this passage that I think ties chronologically to the Fifth Seal.  

Given these items, what can we imply about events on earth during the Fifth Seal?  I think the scene in heaven tells us that very possibly the world’s anger about the devastated condition of the planet and about all the dead people – something like two billion people if it was today - will be taken out on professing Christians in a big way leading to still more martyrs.   Since this is pre-rapture, these martyrs are part of the church.  We can see the church being scapegoated as responsible for all this turmoil.  It is a tried and true method, Nero was perhaps the first to scapegoat the church and it was very successful in getting the anger of the populace redirected.

If we have interpreted this part correctly, we ought to note also that the rapture marks the end of the church age.  Therefore, since these martyrs that we see at the fifth seal are told to wait for their numbers to be complete, we have yet another basis for saying that the rapture has NOT occurred at the fifth seal.  

SUMMARY OF FIFTH SEAL –
As the world falls apart, scapegoats will be needed.  Rage will turn to blame, and those blamed will be killed.  The church will be that scapegoat, and many will be killed by random mobs, by those who manage to seize a little authority by force.  There won't be any justice – lynching is always a local affair.  These will be summary executions, and these will be drawn out torture.  This is what will be happening on earth as the fifth seal is opened.  We are surmising these things based on the events we are seeing in heaven in Revelation, and we are doing our surmising based on correlative scripture from Matthew 24.  
 

THE SIXTH SEAL – Rev. 6:12-17
12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" [Rev 6:12-17 ESV]

Now we come to a very busy seal, the sixth.  A lot of things are going to happen here, and so we will need to take the time to fully establish as many details as we can.  The description of Sixth Seal events runs for six verses.  The first four seals got two verses each, the fifth seal got three, and now we have six.

I think we can make a lot of progress towards understanding verses 12-14, above,  by comparing them to this verse from Matthew: 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [Mat 24:29 ESV].  

What do these two verses have in common?  Changes in the sun and moon and stars falling from heaven.  I submit that these events do not happen often, even in the Bible.  I believe that Revelation 6:12-14 and Matthew 24:29 are describing the same moment in time.  We need to keep that in mind, because we will be using this moment as an anchor point in time to help us understand where we are in the unfolding events of the last days.  The way we look at those events, and the time we assign to the rapture, in fact depend on whether we believe these two passages are describing the same “day”.

We should also note what does not tie together in these two passages.  Revelation has an earthquake, Matthew does not.  Revelation also has the sky “vanishing” and Matthew does not…unless “the powers of the heavens will be shaken” is about that.  The Greek word that the ESV translates “vanishing” is only translated that way by the ESV and RSV.  There are some other translations also.  One is “split apart”, another is “rolled up” and still another is “receded”.  The BLB definitions section says this Greek word, “apochorizo”, is “to separate, sever”, or “to part asunder”.  I only add this because I think the word “vanish” is a poor choice for what this event will actually look like.  Later, we will propose a fitting interpretation of this event, and place it precisely in the chronology of the end times.

I believe Rev 6:12-14 and Matt 24:29 are describing the same day and this is how I will use this anchor point to understand where we are.  First, we know that the first five seals came before the signs in the sixth.  I don’t think anyone would argue that point.  All that means is that Revelation 6 is chronological in presentation.  Since the first five seals came before these signs in heaven in Revelation 6, and since Matt 24:29 describes the same signs in heaven, then I think we can safely say that whatever comes before Matt 24:29 ALSO CAME BEFORE these signs.  The implications of this are therefore that whatever came before Matt 24:29 must necessarily  have come DURING or BEFORE the first five seals, and whatever comes after Matt 24:29 comes DURING or AFTER the Sixth Seal.  It cannot be otherwise.  Understanding this anchor point is critical.  In my opinion, it is also very difficult to argue that this correlation is incorrect.

Now let’s compare the information in each passage and see what we might learn.  In order to do this, we need to remember that the passage in Revelation describes events as seen by John, who is in heaven at the time.  In Matthew 24, Jesus is telling his disciples on earth what they can expect to see on earth.  So the perspectives – the points of view – are different, but the events are concurrent.  Here are the two passages, shown together for easy comparison:

12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. [Rev 6:12-14 ESV]

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [Mat 24:29 ESV]

First, note the “when” of each passage.  In Revelation, the signs occur as a result of the opening of the Sixth Seal.  John sees a full moon become like blood.  Full moons don’t last very long, so does this tells us to be more alert for these signs in the heavens if the moon is near full?  Maybe…unless the moon always looks full when you are looking down from heaven.  Stars will fall to earth?  Many point to this as an indication that the whole scene is vision because we now know that real stars are far too massive to fall to earth.  Here are three other references to stars found in Revelation:

20 As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. [Rev 1:20 ESV]
1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. [Rev 9:1 ESV]
4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. [Rev 12:4 ESV]
I think we can make a good case here that these stars falling to earth are angels expelled from heaven at this time, or perhaps they are angels that will be needed on earth to minister to God’s people during this time.  If one or both of these are true, angels being thrown out of heaven could certainly describe “shaking the powers of the heavens” if we also see these powers as angels residing in heaven.  I am not sure what an angel falling from heaven to earth looks like, but I think we have two references here to tell us they look a lot like meteorites.  

In Revelation, we also have an earthquake and a vanishing sky.  From John’s vantage in heaven, that earthquake was visible, but it does not say the earthquake was worldwide.  Since it is not worldwide, Jesus does not mention it in Matthew, because many won’t know about it.  The vanishing sky is also seen from heaven.  Think of this as a window opening through which one can see clearly from heaven the events on earth.  

Moving on to the last few verses in Revelation 6, we get this:  
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" [Rev 6:15-17 ESV]

((2024 - In my recent reading I also found this verse:  8 The high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed. Thorn and thistle shall grow up on their altars, and they shall say to the mountains, "Cover us," and to the hills, "Fall on us." [Hos 10:8 ESV.  Is this a previous instance of people recognizing that the events around them are not "normal", but sent by God for his own reasons?  And in Revelation we see the very same reaction to the events of those days?   It is pretty clear in the Hosea verse that that the call to "fall on us" had to do with Israel's fall, not the rest of the world.  Even so, the reaction, and the understanding of those who experience such events, is the same.]))

We see here that everyone on earth, from Kings to slaves, now recognizes that these events are sent and controlled, by God.  They recognize that the day of reckoning is at hand.  Rather than fall on their knees and beg for one last chance at forgiveness, they go and hide.  They seek out desolate, remote places, and the protection of rocks and mountains – they surround themselves with bedrock – thinking it may give them some protection from what is to come.  These recognize that the wrath of God is about to begin.

It turns out that this term – wrath has come – has a very specific meaning.  Here are some New Testament verses that use the term as I think it is meant in verse 17:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [Mat 3:7 ESV]
5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. [Rom 2:5 ESV]
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. [Rom 5:9 ESV]
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. [1Th 1:10 ESV]
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, [1Th 5:9 ESV]

From these verses we learn that in Jesus’ time, this “day of wrath” was in the future.  It had not yet come.  We see that at some point the wrath will be revealed.  We see in Rev 6:17 that the day had come.  But those who are saved by the blood of Christ will be SAVED FROM WRATH.  I think we should interpret this as meaning we will be REMOVED from the pouring out of the wrath of Father and Son by the rapture.  The last three verses above all speak to this.  Those who are in Christ are to be saved from wrath.  

One more point needs to be made as to the timeline of end time’s events.  Wrath BEGINS somewhere in or after the Sixth Seal is opened.  Based on the verses above, the church will be removed before it begins.  So we know that BEFORE wrath begins, the rapture must take place.  Maybe years before, maybe 1 second before, but we are promised that we will be gone before “the day of wrath” begins.  Repeatedly promised this.  The fact that it is stated so many times ought to be a clue that this is an important marker.

So that is what happens in Revelation AFTER the signs in heaven.  What happens in Matthew after this?  We get these two very important, very discernible verses:

30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Mat 24:30-31 ESV].  

In Revelation, we see the lost running to hide as they realize that the end has arrived.  In Matthew, Jesus tells his disciples what will happen to the saved on earth.  Jesus is talking about this time from the vantage point of the earth.

The sign of the Son of Man will appear, causing man to mourn – which correlates very well to the effect the Sixth Seal has on mankind.  What is this sign?  Perhaps this:
64 Jesus said to him, "…from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." [Mat 26:64 ESV].  Maybe it will be that when the “window” opens, when the sky is rolled back, or parted, or divided, then all on earth will see Jesus seated on a throne at the right hand of God.  All will know who he is.  Every tongue will confess him.  Imagine him standing up from that throne, and descending part way down, through that window in the sky, standing on the clouds of heaven!  

And THEN, in the Sixth Seal, the trumpet will sound and angels will come to remove from earth and escort the saved in Christ – first those who are already dead, and then those who are alive and remain – to MEET JESUS IN THE AIR.  Doesn’t this sound familiar?  Because it is here:
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. [1Th 4:16-17 ESV].

Sixth Seal Summary -
So here is the point of the Sixth Seal.  The warnings are all over.  When it is opened, there will be no more atheists.  Every eye has seen him.  Every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD – and this realization will scare them to death and in fear they will attempt to hide from him, to avoid him at any cost. At this time, the church is finally, victoriously, publicly raptured out.  The planet and I do mean the entire planet, sort of goes into convulsions.  Things will happen that are so inexplicable that everyone left on earth recognizes that time is up, that the church was right about God, and now that same God is unappeasably angry at all who remain on earth.  That God they did not accept is about to "exact justice" from the Gentiles as he has spent the previous 2000 plus years exacting justice from Israel.  At the end of this seal, the continents will not look the same.  The landscapes will all have changed.  The sky will not look the same.  The constellations will be changed.  All this will happen, and yet the earth and millions upon millions of lost people will still be here.  

There is much in Revelation 6, and much in this summary that defies consensus.  In an effort to build a little consensus, in order to persuade those who believe the church will be taken out of the world before the First Seal is opened, I think it is vitally important that we show how a Sixth Seal rapture is the only way we can get complete agreement between the events Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and the events John describes in Revelation 6.  I think the best way, indeed the only way to make these two critically important descriptions of events match up logically and rationally and consistently is to put the rapture in verse 31 of Matthew 24 and immediately after verse 14 of Revelation 6.

Because this is so vital to our understanding of the remainder of Revelation, and to our understanding of end times events, we will take a step away from the Book of Revelation, and look at Matthew 24.  In Matthew 24 Jesus’ disciples – not just the 12 but a group of his disciples – have followed him out to the Mount of Olives after leaving the Temple.  These disciples heard Jesus say “2 …”You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." [Mat 24:2 ESV].  Jesus had predicted the destruction of the Temple. This sets the minds of his disciples racing.  How can it possibly be that the house chosen by God as the place where He is to be worshiped will be torn down.  As they continue from the Temple to the mountain, many questions present themselves.  When they get where they’re going, away from the crowds that surrounded them all in the Temple, and things settle down, and there is time to consider, the disciples ask Jesus three questions.  The rest of Matthew 24 gives us Jesus’ answers to those three questions.  He answers them in order.  He answers them one at a time.  Here are the questions:
" 3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" [Mat 24:3 ESV]…

Just to be sure we’re all on the same page, let’s pull those out:
1.  When will these things be?
2.  What will be the sign of your coming?
3.  What will be the sign of the end of the age?

As a preview, Jesus answers the first question in Matt 24:1-14, the second in Matthew 24:15-30, and the third in Matthew 24:31.  

Looking at that first question, they are asking when exactly the temple will be destroyed.  In verses 1-14 Jesus tells them that after he is gone, there will be many claiming to be him, that there will be persecutions, betrayals, and love gone cold.  There will be false prophets.  Surely all these things occurred under the continued Roman oppression from the time Jesus ascended  until the Temple fell in 70 AD.  Nero was blaming Christians for the burning of Rome during this time.  There was a continual succession of Emperors in Rome, each worse than the last, and Rome continued its foreign policy of world conquest – with wars and rumors of wars constantly circulated.  As 70 AD got closer, in Jerusalem, the Jews began to turn on each other with some thinking loyalty to Rome was best, and others committed to pushing them out of Judea.  Jesus encourages them, in 13 and 14 to remain faithful, to hold fast his teachings, and to proclaim him even in the midst of all this turmoil so that the whole world can know him.  This is what happened as we see in Acts.  

Beginning in vs 15, we get the second question.  This is almost exactly the same question that the Thessalonians have asked Paul in 2 Thess 2:1-4.  Look at how similar the two questions are answered.  Jesus says, if I may paraphrase, that the sign of his coming will be the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place.  When those to whom Jesus is speaking – on earth – see this obvious and unmistakable event – on earth – then Jesus’ return is imminent.  In 2 Thessalonians, Paul says this:  3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. [2Th 2:3-4 ESV].  Both Jesus and Paul say that this end of the world leader must appear, be recognized, and “take over” the Holy Place BEFORE the rapture occurs.  Paul is very specific that he is speaking of an event that must happen before the rapture.  REMEMBER, we saw at the opening of the first seal that events leading to the empowerment over all the world of this end time leader begin.  
What kind of things will happen between the time the MoL appears and the rapture?  We have already seen that there will be unprecedented tribulation.  But look at the specifics – these are the things we have so often heard about, and yet many do not believe that these are information for the church to use during this time, and before the rapture:  16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ... 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! ... 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. ... 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. ... 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [Mat 24:9, 16, 19, 21, 24-25, 27 ESV]

((2024 - So I have said previously in these notes that we do not "see" the MoL in the first six seals.  However, based on the paragraph above, we KNOW he will be there.  If the rapture is at the sixth seal, then the MoL must have appeared, been recognized by the church, and proclaimed himself god above all gods, and the object of worldwide worship.  All this before the rapture.  Add to this that "he will make a treaty with many", but will break it.  I see the breaking of this treaty with the Jews as the "light bulb coming on" so that we understand finally that t his great world leader is in fact the MoL and is not about saving the world but about ruling over it with the power of Satan to back him.  Now, if everything is to fit, and if the rapture is during the sixth seal, then the covenant between the MoL and Israel is broken in or before the sixth seal, and that makes the sixth seal the halfway point - more or less - of the seventieth week.  KNOWING THIS, as we move further into Revelations, and we read about things the MoL does, we will be able to nail down the time.  To do this, I think we will have to let go of the notion that Revelation is chronological from Chapter 5 on and understand it as observation from various perspectives, various locations, various "states".  Sometimes, as in Rev 6, we are being told what John actually sees.  In other chapters, it is not real events but a vision that is being described.  POV needs to be kept firmly in mind as we move on into the meat of end time events.))

Once we see this sign, the Abomination of Desolation, we know that Jesus' coming - that is the rapture of the church - is imminent…but it is not quite yet.  Jesus instructs us to flee for our lives.  These will be desperate times for those in good health but infinitely worse for the pregnant and infirm.  MoL will not be holding back.  He will demand the capture and murder of anyone and everyone claiming to be a Christian or accused of being a Christian.  His false prophet, and the image of the beast will perform signs and deceive even those who are elect - referring to both those who ARE saved and see these things and to those who are yet to be saved during the remainder of the tribulation.  The martyrs of the Fifth Seal are also killed during this time.  But make no mistake...the genuine appearance of the Son of Man to collect his own will be obvious for all to see.  Here is the reason for the book of Revelation.  It is written to believers so that we can "follow along" with end time events, and recognize just how close we are to the rapture.

Also, in this section, we find this verse:  22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. [Mat 24:22 ESV].  Now think about this.  The implication is that when the MoL goes into action in Matt 24:15 and 2Thess2, he is going to do all he can to wipe out the church, and he is willing to wipe out the totality of mankind – of God’s entire creation in fact – to get that done.  This verse does NOT say that God stops him so MANKIND can survive, but that he is stopped so the ELECT will survive.  The only way for this verse to make sense if the rapture has already occurred is to say that it refers to elect who will be saved during Great Tribulation – the last 3 ½ years.  That would mean that it is referencing almost exclusively the Jews.  I submit that it makes far more sense to understand this verse as referencing the remaining elect, including the martyrs of the Fifth Seal that we talked about earlier, who must complete their roles in the church before THE CHURCH is removed once and for all.  This surely makes the most sense!

And the third question…a little more difficult.  What age are they asking about?  The Old Covenant Age?  Doubtful because neither of the other questions was about that.  The end of the planet?  Maybe…but if we know what Revelation says we know when that happens.  We don’t need any sign and there is no specific sign for that.  It just occurs in sequence with other known events in that time.  So that leaves the end of the Church Age, or the Age of the Gentiles – same Age, different names.  Most would agree that the Church Age started on the Day of Pentecost, and that it will end at the rapture.  Therefore, in vs 31 Jesus describes the rapture in some detail because the rapture, which is the sign for all to see that the Church Age has come to an end as it is taken out of the world miraculously at the rapture.  The rapture is the sign of the end of the age.  Imagine all the people who will disappear, but even more profoundly – more undeniable – will be all those graves in the cemeteries laid open from the inside.  

Interpreted this way, we see that the first fourteen verses of Matthew 24 have nothing at all to do with the End Times, and so trying to correlate any of the Seal Judgments with those events runs quickly into problems of consistency.  We see that verses 15-30 describe events that begin when the MoL declares himself god and end at the rapture.  Paul confirms this interpretation to the Thessalonians.  We must also ask at this point exactly why Jesus would tell these disciples – these that are part of his inner council – about all these things if they, as the church, would NOT be going through it.  You have to remember that Jesus says elsewhere that even he does not know when he is coming back.  Therefore, his answer to these people must presume the possibility that THEY will see the Abomination of Desolation, that THEY will go through a great tribulation like the world has never seen, and that THEY will be taken up into the air without tasting death.  HOW ELSE could they understand what he is saying???  What other interpretation works so well for both Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 is even possible?

Chapter 7 begins with "After this I saw..."  So John's POV has NOT changed.  He is in the same place he was before, observing events from heaven's perspective.  We must also remember “where we are” in the chronology.  So we should remember that we have interpreted the Sixth Seal to be the time of the rapture.  So what John is seeing in Chapter 7 are events that will occur post-rapture.  Further, we should note that John is looking at earth, but he is seeing spiritual activity.  He sees the activity of angels directed towards the planet.  

In 7:1 John observes four angels holding back the winds, so that no wind can blow from any direction.  In the second verse we see a fifth angel rising up out the sunrise.  He is carrying the seal of the living God, which would presumably not be entrusted to just any angel.  It is no surprise then that this angel apparently has considerable authority in the angel hierarchy.  He “commands” four other angels not to harm the earth until he has completed his own task of sealing 144,000 men of the nation of Israel.  Here is the verse:  3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." [Rev 7:3 ESV].  So to whom, exactly, is this fifth angel speaking?  

Look first at what he says.  He does not say “stop what you’re doing”, he doesn’t say “hold up a sec until I get these guys sealed”.  He says “Do not harm…”  If we look at the Greek verb tense we see that “harm” is aorist active subjunctive.  The aorist tense does not really designate a time as past, present, or future.  Harm happens, but we don’t know when.  Likewise, the subjunctive, to quote Blue Letter Bible, “…is the mood of possibility and potentiality”. A subjunctive action may or may not occur.  It is conditional.  In this case it is conditional upon the sealing of the 144,000.  So…Is he telling the four horsemen to hold up on the deaths of ¼ of the earth’s population, is he telling the four corner angels to stop holding back the wind for a time, or, is he talking to someone else entirely?  

Remember that we saw four angels on horseback in Chapter 6. We know that a lot of terrible things are occurring on earth, all linked to each other by various degrees of causality.  But most of these things were caused by man and they affect mankind.  Further, those four angels harm by sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts.  None of those are really about harm to earth, sea, or trees.  So it doesn’t seem that the fifth angel is talking to the four seal angels.

What about the “corner angels”?  Are they harming earth, sea, and trees by holding back the wind?  What effect would this have, physically?  We might think of the primary effect of wind as a means of redistributing the heat from the sun.  At the equator, the sun heats the air and water intensely.  On a macro level, heated air rises at the equator, moves north and south, and cool air from one pole or the other moves into that void, "normalizing" the earth’s temperature.  Of course, a lot of micro processes take place also…storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, trade winds, and so on.  In Revelation 7, all of this air movement will cease.  If no air moves, heat redistribution can only be through convection.  I see that as a much slower, less efficient means of redistribution.  However, we do not have a clue what micro processes might arise in such a situation.  I think the equator will get much hotter.  The heat will barely move to north and south.  At the same time, with no warm air moving north, the poles will get significantly colder.  We aren’t told how long this “windless” condition will last.  If it goes on very long, the effect on crops is going to be devastating.  The earth will bake or freeze solid, but not be permanently damaged.  The oceans will get too hot to sustain life at the surface, but the ocean is deep.  It may stop raining worldwide since there will be nothing to cool the hot, humid air over the oceans, so trees would go dormant…but would they die?    

It stands to reason that all will recognize this as a supernatural situation.  The wind cannot stop blowing worldwide unless something supernatural happens.  This will be an unexplainable event.  I would characterize this whole wind not blowing situation as solar energy storage on a massive scale.  All that heat near the equator is like a big overcharged battery which increasingly needs to discharge.  But I don’t see this as any kind of permanent harm to earth, sea, and trees. So I have a hard time concluding that the fifth angel is talking to the four corner angels either.

Who else could it be then?  Let’s remember where we are.  The church is gone.  There isn’t a single saved person alive on earth.  Remember the last verse of Chapter 6, after the Sixth Seal, after the rapture?  It said this:  17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" [Rev 6:17 ESV].  Wrath is about to start, but hasn’t started yet.  Maybe the fifth angel is telling “wrath” not to start yet.  In Chapter 8, we will see the first four trumpets sound.  They will be sounded by four angels.  In summary, at the first trumpet “…a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up. [Rev 8:7 ESV].  At the second, “…a third of the sea became blood. [Rev 8:8 ESV], at the third trumpet, blown by an angel, “…A third of the waters became wormwood (poisonous), and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter. [Rev 8:11 ESV], and finally, at the fourth, “…a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night. [Rev 8:12 ESV].  No doubt these four angels will harm earth, sea, and trees.  They say so specifically.  

Therefore, the best interpretation is that the fifth angel is speaking to four angels who have not yet begun their work.  The fifth angel says not to pour out the wrath of God until the 144,000 are sealed.  It will be easier, better, and more efficient for the fifth angel to seal the 144,000 BEFORE all the chaos of the destruction of earth, sea, and trees begins. This takes us through 7:3.

From 7:4 – 7:8 there is an “accounting” of the 144,000 sealed.  What is revealed about these?  Note that there are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel.  We should look more closely though.  While there are 12 sets of 12,000, note that the half tribe of Manasseh is here designated as a tribe, and there is also a tribe of Joseph.  What we do not see are the half tribe of Ephraim and the tribe of Dan.  We might easily make the case that Joseph is the half tribe of Ephraim since Jacob blessed Ephraim with his right hand even though he was the younger, back in Gen 48:14.  We know that Jacob removed the firstborn’s inheritance – which was always a double share – and named Ephraim and Manasseh as his direct descendants.  Reuben, though firstborn, got only one share, while Joseph – via his two sons – got two shares.  

But there is no mention at all of Dan.  Why would this be?  Perhaps there is a clue back in Genesis 49, where Jacob prophesies about each of his sons.  Here is what he said about Dan:  16 "Dan shall judge his people as one of the tribes of Israel. 17 Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path, that bites the horse's heels so that his rider falls backward. [Gen 49:16-17 ESV].  Hard to say what that really means, but it does not sound at all good for the tribe of Dan.  Moses said this about Dan:  22 And of Dan he said, "Dan is a lion's cub that leaps from Bashan." [Deu 33:22 ESV].  One other thing we know about Dan is that they really never conquered their allotment in Canaan.  They were allotted a coastal area on the Mediterranean south of the allotment to Ephraim.   Ultimately, they abandoned that area and conquered a completely innocent and unsuspecting people in Laish.  Laish is in the region of Bashan, an area NE of the Sea of Galilee.  This is where Dan ultimately settled, fulfilling Moses’ prophecy.  This story is in Judges 18.  

We also see in that chapter that Dan “adopts” their own priest, they steal the family gods of the man to whom that priest had been ministering, and basically they  set up their own pagan and entirely separate religion in Laish, well to the north of Galilee.  We can see, then, that this complete turning away from God, this apostasy, might be the reason Dan is not mentioned in Revelation 7.  We might also surmise, though the Bible does not say so, that the members of the tribe of Dan were disinherited by God, and those that had remained in Canaan, near Ephraim, were incorporated into the tribe of Ephraim.  In that case, Ephraim would encompass parts of two tribes, and maybe that explains why the “half tribe” of Ephraim was bumped up to the full tribe of Joseph. This is entirely speculative, but it does make a kind of sense.

Then, there is the elephant in the room.  Just who are these 144,000 anyway and why are they sealed?  The first thing to note is that Chapter 7 tells us not one word about their purpose.  A search for the term “144,000” reveals that it is used in three verses in Revelation, the verse that we are looking at here, 7:4, and then twice in Revelation 14.  Here are the verses in Chapter 14:  3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. [Rev 14:3-5 ESV].  

So in Revelation 14, these 144.000 who were sealed in Chapter 7 are seen in heaven, assembled around the throne of God.  When they were sealed, they were surely on the earth.  Two ways to get to heaven from earth:  you have to die and go to heaven as spirit, and then wait for the rapture, or you have to be alive when the rapture occurs.  Now in both interpretations that we are considering, the rapture occurs BEFORE the sealing of the 144,000.  So how are they in heaven in Revelation 14?  Some believe these 144,000 are in view in Revelation Chapter 12.  There, we find this verse:  11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. [Rev 12:11 ESV].  Some books on Revelation apply this verse to the 144,000 and call them evangelists because they testify, or martyrs because some or all of them die – or at least they are willing to die.

Looking at the first possibility, what would these do as evangelists?  Those who assign this title to them say that throughout wrath – or throughout the Great Tribulation period, it will be these who carry the gospel truth of Jesus Christ to all the Jews remaining on the earth.  It is these who will bring Israel home to the Promised Land by their millions.  These will be immune to the attempts of the MoL to destroy Israel during his reign, and they will be pretty much 100% effective in bringing the Jews home to Israel.  It will be these who fulfil the prophecies in Isaiah and also other places where Jews from the whole world are coming home to Israel.  The assumption is that you need evangelists to accomplish this.  But the 144,000 didn’t have anyone to preach to them.  Why then are they needed to convert the rest?  I would suggest that God has put a new heart within them and they no longer need to ask their brothers, because God has put the answers in their hearts.  I believe it more likely that God will deal directly with the nation of Israel at this time rather than bring them home through evangelism.  And if we do call them evangelists, we still have the problem of how they got to the very throne of God where they are seen in Chapter 14.

Secondly, there is the description of them in Revelation 14, quoted above.  I would note especially that in 14:4b they are called “the firstfruits for God and the Lamb”.  Looked at this way, we might say these are the first people saved during Great Tribulation.  Note that this is the only place in Revelation where the word firstfruits is used.  But here are some others in the New Testament:
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ... 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. [1Co 15:20, 23 ESV]
13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. [2Th 2:13 ESV]
18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. [Jas 1:18 ESV].
In these verses, firstfruits is used of Jesus as the very first ever to rise from the dead, and we are promised that same sort of rising.  Then in the second two verses the saved in the early church – that first generation of those saved under the New Covenant – are in view.  So from this, we might make the case that the 144,000 are the very first Jews saved in the 70th week.  The first Jews saved as part of God’s fulfilment of his promises to Abraham in this last time, which will culminate with Jesus on the throne on planet earth.  From this, it might well be implied that they will spread the word of their conversion to all Jews everywhere during those last days, and so this would tie us back to the first possibility above.

There is a third possibility.  It could be that the 144,000 are the ONLY survivors of Israel left on the earth at this future time, and so they in fact comprise ALL Israel, and as such will be supernaturally protected through the last days in order to enter the Millennial with Christ at his second coming and rule all nations.  They are sealed, therefore, as immunity from Satan’s attempts to kill them every one.  And wouldn’t this also explain why ONLY the 144,000 can learn that song?  Why not all those saved during the last days, after the rapture?  These will be scattered all over the world.  Otherwise the fifth angel could just seal them all at once, but he needs a pause so that he can find and seal them all.  Angels operate in “time”, and so such a task will naturally take more than a few minutes.  We know that all Israel will be saved at the end, but we do not know how many will BE Israel at the end.

There is one more passage that I think may be relevant.  I think the verses are connected because they both talk about the seal of God.  We saw in verses 2 and 3 and the fifth angel is carrying the seal of the living God, but we do not know what being sealed is actually about.  The first and most obvious possibility is that they are to be saved.  I believe they are, but I don’t think that is what the sealing of the 144,000 is really about.  Look at this verse:  27 …For on him God the Father has set his seal." [Jhn 6:27b ESV].  Jesus was also sealed with the seal of God.  It seems a real stretch that this is Jesus saying that he is saved.  He is God.  He never sins.  He is not the seed of Adam, because his Father is God.  So the sealing means something besides just being saved.  

This verse comes very soon after Jesus says he is sealed in John 6:  37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [Jhn 6:37 ESV].  Almost immediately after saying he carries the seal of the Father, Jesus says he is the “way” for many to be saved.  He says he has both the responsibility for these, and that he is sent specifically for these.  HE is the one who is to take the gospel to these whom God has chosen.  Perhaps the Father has given the Jews in the last days to the 144,000 in this same way?  Looked at this way, we can show a basis for saying that the 144,000 are the evangelists to the Jews between the rapture and the second coming.  We might also note that Jesus was sealed, and he ascended to the Father.  Perhaps that is also how the 144,000 will get there.

Still, we don’t really have any direct information about the purpose of the 144,000 that seems to fulfill what is said about them in the few specific references we have.  We aren’t given any “firm” information about how it is that in Revelation 14, they are singing around the throne we saw in Revelation 4, which was clearly in heaven.  I “like” the idea that they are evangelists, turning the hearts of the unsaved Jews still on earth to their Messiah, and I consider the quotes above from John 6 to be a decent argument that this might be who they are.  For now, I am going with evangelism as their purpose, and we will deal with Chapter 14 when we get there!

Moving on from the sealing of the 144,000, beginning in Rev 7:9, we have this description of what John sees:  
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" [Rev 7:9-10 ESV]

Verse 9 starts with “After this”, so we are talking about what John sees after the sealing of the 144,000.  As we have shown, this sealing will have taken some time, and those sealed are on the earth.  I think events in heaven also continued during the time it took to seal the 144,000.  I think what John sees “After this…” is the aftermath of the events going on in heaven while the 144,000 were being sealed on earth.  

So the obvious question is that if this is the aftermath of some event, what exactly was that event?  We are given a number of clues – characteristics – that we can use in narrowing down what may have happened.  First, we see that that the numbers around the throne are uncountable.  Vast, huge numbers of people are gathered here.  We know they are people because we are told they are from all nations, tribes, peoples, and languages.  I think this description applies very well to Gentiles, and not so well to Jews.  If these were all Jews, I believe John would have said so.  Therefore, I think we are looking at uncountable Gentiles in heaven.  And where ar they exactly?  They are “before the throne AND before the Lamb”.  I think the wording here is purposeful.  This is confirmed in the last sentence of the verse, which says God is on this throne before which so many are standing, and the Lamb is also present – but not on that throne.  This arrangement, as we will see, is definitive.  Next, we see that all are wearing white robes, all have palm branches, and all are crying out in worship.  Frankly, that is a LOT of clues as to what is in progress here.  Let’s explore them systematically.  

We have uncountable numbers of Gentiles here.  When John described this scene in heaven back in Revelation 4 there were no crowds described.  We had a throne where God sat, we had seven torches, twenty four elders on their own thrones, and four creatures.  The Lamb had not yet appeared, and there were certainly no crowds.  What has happened since that original scene that might account for so many Gentiles?  I propose that the rapture has happened, and that all the saved of the church age have been given their perfect physical bodies, and they now stand before the throne.

What of the white robes?  We have seen those before as it turns out, in these two references:
5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. [Rev 3:5 ESV].
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. [Rev 6:11 ESV].
Those who conquer have white robes, and martyrs have white robes.  I did not include the reference, but it is also true that the 24 elders have white robes.  These robes are a sign of honor, of achievement, of status.  I believe they are given to all those raptured – which means all the Christians of the church age.  We should also note in Rev 3:5 that Jesus will confess these wearing white before His Father.  Since we know already that in this scene in Rev 7 the Father is on the throne and the Son is standing by, we might say this is the event anticipated back in Rev 3:5.  

Then come the palm branches.  We ought to remember these from Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem.  These are laid before the King, to honor him.  In this case

And last, they worship God saying that salvation belongs to Him and to the Lamb.  One might suggest that this salvation they talk about is something they have just received, and so they are immediately thanking and praising God as the source of what they have received.  It this is the rapture, these have just been saved from further great tribulation.  They have been saved from the wrath that is about to be unleashed on the earth and all those left behind at the rapture.

I believe this scene, and all the characteristics that we see here, ought to be interpreted as the aftermath of a judgment.   I interpret this scene as the aftermath of the Bema Seat Judgment, or the Judgement Seat of God, as described by Paul here: 10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; [Rom 14:10 ESV].  There is also this verse, which is worded differently but interpreted by many to describe the same judgment:  10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. [2Co 5:10 ESV].  (I don’t think they are the same, but that is another discussion.)

We talk a lot about the Bema Seat Judgment, but it turns out that most of what we say is speculation.  The Bible tells us very very little about this judgment.  Even so, let’s look at the reasons we have to believe this might be the Bema.  

The first step in this process is to eliminate the possibility that this is one of the other two end time judgments described in Revelation.  This is a pretty straightforward process as we are given some pretty specific timestamps as to when the other two take place.  

Let’s talk first about the judgment that comes last.  It is very clearly described here:  11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [Rev 20:11-12 ESV].  Note first that the GWT judgment is a judgment exclusively of the dead.  It says so twice.  The bema is a judgment of the resurrected, changed, and now ALIVE forever in perfect physical bodies.  Therefore, if Revelation 7 shows us the aftermath of a judgment, it is NOT after the GWT judgment.  Secondly, note also that the one on the throne is not specifically identified.  Even so I think it is God the Father because this is THE FINAL JUDGMENT spoken of in the Bible.  We know that imperfection cannot exist in the presence of God, and we know that even the earth and sky are corrupted by the sins of mankind.  Therefore, in the presence of God on the throne, on earth, the earth and sky msut flee.  We also know from an earlier verse in Chapter 20 that this judgment takes place at the end of the 1000 years.  The Great White Throne Judgment is a post-Millennial judgment.  We would have a hard time showing that the Millennial has occurred before Revelation 7:9-17.  So the large gathering before the throne in Rev 7 is clearly not the aftermath of the Great White Throne Judgment.  

Then, there is the pre-Millennial judgment, described here:  31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [Mat 25:31-34, 41 ESV].  That first phrase “when the Son of Man comes” tells us this is about the second coming of Christ to the earth.  He comes with his angels.  Here is a description of his coming:  11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. ... 14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. ... 16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. [Rev 19:11, 14, 16 KJV].  The armies of heaven are ALWAYS angels, and they will be coming with him.  So we see that this is the actual arrival of Christ on earth to assume Kingship of his earthly kingdom.  First, most obviously, and sufficient proof for our purposes that this judgment is not the one described in Rev 7 is that Christ will be seated on the throne at this judgment.  In Rev 7, the Father is on the throne.  Looking further, we see that only those who have survived the 70th week and are still alive will be judged.  So no matter where we might think the rapture occurs, we can be sure it occurs before this pre-Millennial judgment.  The judge will say "Come, you who are blessed of my Father..."  AND he will also say “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire…”  At the Bema judgment, none will be condemned to hell.  We get this from the following passage:  13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. [1Co 3:13-15 ESV].  Even those who suffer loss at this judgment will be saved.  That clearly is not the case at the Pre-Millennial judgment.  So this scene in Revelation 7 is not the Pre-Millennial judgment with Christ as Judge.

This establishes that IF this is the aftermath of a judgment in heaven, then it is the aftermath of Bema and not of either the Pre-Millennial Judgment or the Great White Throne Judgment.  We might think of our arguments so far as “negative” arguments.  Do we have any “positive” arguments that this is the Bema?  

I believe this same scene described in Revelation was previously described in Daniel 7.  Let me go ahead and put some verses together from that chapter and then we will walk through a possible correlation with Revelation 7.  If we can establish that these are the same judgment, then we can learn quite a lot more ABOUT the Bema judgment, and our case that Revelation 7 is the aftermath of the Bema judgment gets much stronger.  Here are the relevant verses from Daniel 7:
9 "As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. ...

So here in Daniel’s vision what do we have?  First, thrones were placed.  More than one.  I suggest that there was the Throne of God, and the thrones of the 24 Elders.  We see that it is the Ancient of Days, God the Father, who sits on the primary throne.  Remember that in Rev 7: 9, and previously in Rev 4 we established that is God the Father on the throne in Revelation.  

The throne itself is described in Daniel.  It looks like fire with burning fiery “wheels”.  In addition to that, a stream of fire issues/sprays/engulfs the area before the throne.  We take special note of this because of the previously quoted verses from 1Cor 3:13-15, where works will be tried by fire at the Bema judgment.  

Present at the throne in Daniel are a thousand thousands that serve God, along with ten thousand times ten thousand before him.  This phrasing indicates that there were uncountable numbers before the throne.  Compare this to the description in Revelation 7, where John sees “a multitude that no one could number”.  The language in both passages is quite comparable.  

And in Daniel, what is about to happen?  The court “sits down” to begin judging.  They court will render judgment according to what they find in “the books”.  NOTE that the Book of Life, where the names of all the saved are written, is not mentioned.  This is what you would expect if the salvation of those judged was not at issue.  That is to me a very strong indication that this is the Bema judgment of the raptured church.
Therefore, based on the arguments above, I believe the scene in Daniel 7 occurs just before the scene in Revelation 7.  The multitudes gather, judgment is rendered, why robes are distributed, and God is praised.  So in Revelation 7, we are seeing the aftermath of the Bema seat judgment.  John, at the end of Revelation 7, is describing the celebratory aftermath of the bema seat judgment.   The sealing and the bema both come to an end at about the same time, and then we see that in heaven, there is much worship.  Note that in vs 12, all the angels say "Amen".  So be it, agreeing with the "song" of this celebration following the bema.  Note that at the end of vs 10, it is GOD sitting, and the Lamb is also present.  The Lamb is standing, not judging.  The judge is seated.

(Before going on, I have to confess something.  I am not entirely convinced that there will be a Bema judgment.  I believe that the “rewards” of the saved, that the “status” of the saved for all eternity will be determined by an accounting of the works done in our lives that were done to the glory of God.  What I don’t really know is whether that will be a completely separate judgment from the Pre-Millennial judgment at Christs’ return and the Great White Throne Judgment.  Many many problems arise from trying to make the Bema a separate judgment.  So.  I went through all the above to show that IF there is a Bema Judgment, this scene in Revelation and in Daniel is the best candidate for it.  But it might just be that this innumerable crowd is just celebrating their resurrection, as promised by Jesus.)
 
Now, having established the possibility that the bema judgment has just been completed, we ought to look very closely at Rev 7:14-17.  These verses are important because in them one of the 24 elders seated around the throne of God explains to John what he is seeing.  We should expect a corroboration of our interpretation of this scene – or at least a lack of any contradiction – given that this elder will have direct knowledge of the scene.  

Here are those verses:  14 …he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." [Rev 7:14b-17 ESV].

First, all these have come “out of the great tribulation”.  The use of this term by an elder at the throne of God at the end of time DOES NOT refer to our modern man-made definition of Tribulation and Great Tribulation.  The term as used here is, I believe, the same as Jesus used in Matthew 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [Matt 24:21 ESV].  We spent a lot of time previously showing that Jesus’ use of this term refers to the time between recognition of the Abomination of Desolation and the rapture, which takes place in Matt 24:31…AFTER much tribulation.  These in heaven around the throne were “removed” from great tribulation.  They did NOT go through it all the way to the end of the 70th week.  Let’s take a closer look at the Greek words used here to make this point.

In Rev 7:14, we find the phrase “the ones coming out of the great tribulation”.  The Greek words translated “the ones coming” are the Greek words transliterated “ohi erchomenoi”.  “ohi” is just a definite article telling us we are being specific about this particular group.  “erchomenoi” is the interesting word here.  It means “to come from one place to another”.  Here is another verse that uses the same word:  2 saying, "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him." [Mat 2:2 ESV], this time translated “have come”.  It is clear that the wise men came from somewhere else – another country and culture in this case – and are now before Herod in Jerusalem.  The next word back in 7:14, which is translated “out of” is the tiny little Greek word “ek”.  This word shows up 921 times in the KJV, and is translated “out of” only 162 of those times.  It is translated “of” 366 times, and “from” 181 times.  So paraphrasing a bit, I would read vs 14 as “These are the people who came from the time of great tribulation”.  I think this elder is saying these were on earth as the great tribulation of which Jesus spoke in Matthew 24 was in progress – and now, because of the rapture, they are here at the throne.  They were on earth and are now in heaven.  These are ones who were “saved from wrath”.

There is another very prevalent interpretation about who these wearing the white robes might be.  Those who hold to this other interpretation generally also hold to the pre-trib rapture, meaning rapture before even the First Seal is opened.  In this interpretation, the ones seen in heaven around the throne, these uncountable numbers, are NOT all those raptured out as the church.  Instead, they are those who are saved, martyred, and arrived in heaven DURING Tribulation and Great tribulation, as defined in our modern eschatology.  I think this causes a lot of problems with the chronology of the end times.  

Remember where we are in Revelation.  The Sixth Seal has just been opened.  Still to come are the Seventh seal, the seven trumpets, the seven thunders and the seven bowls.  Yet all the souls who will be martyred during the entire period of trib and great trib are already in heaven before the Seventh Seal is even opened?  Things make much more sense, to me at least, if we look back to Mt 24:21 where it talks about tribulation never before seen and never to be seen again and place that period BEFORE the rapture. 
Here is another short but I think compelling point.  Many, including me, believe that the opening of the Sixth Seal marks the boundary between our modern terms of Tribulation and Great Tribulation.  John MacArthur, to name a big name, also believes the boundary is about here.  So if we say that back in Matt 24:21 when Jesus said great tribulation was coming, he was using that term to designate the last half of the 70th week, AND that occurs AFTER the Sixth Seal was opened, how can this elder say that all these millions came FROM great tribulation?  According to this interpretation of Jesus words, Great Tribulation hasn’t even started yet!

Lastly, look at verse 17.  If the Bema judgment has not happened before we get to this verse, then how can 17 be true at this time?  At the Bema judgment, we will be called to account for all the failures to perform as we ought to have performed from the time of our salvation until our deaths – or the rapture.  How will anyone stand at that judgment, hear those failures read out loud for all to hear, and not shed tears both of sorrow and regret for our personal failures?  No.  These who stand at the throne at the end of Revelation 7 will never face judgment again.  Therefore, they are praising God for his mercy and for his grace.

This is a good place to summarize what has happened in Revelation Chapters 4-7 according to our interpretation.  John is given the privilege of previewing end times events as seen from heaven.  The events are orchestrated from a throne room located in heaven itself.  God, determining that the time of the end has arrived, gives a scroll sealed with seven seals to the only worthy one, Christ, who appears as a lamb slain.  Jesus begins opening the seals one by one, and things begin to fall apart on the earth.  Wars become the order of the day, the rule of law breaks down, the world economy collapses, and hunger spreads everywhere.  At some point during all these disturbances, the Man of Lawlessness will appear and be recognized by the Christians on earth.  He will begin to try and wipe the church out completely and name himself god of the universe.  The church will go into hiding as people try to survive the most intense persecution of the church the world has ever seen.  Just when it seems the MoL will wipe out all mankind in his zeal to destroy the church, the Sixth Seal is opened, and the earth is rocked by earthquakes, signs in the heavens, and stars falling to earth.  Then Jesus appears in the clouds and raptures out the dead in Christ first, followed by those who have survived the great tribulation to this point.  That is, Jesus “removes” the church from further great tribulation at the hand of the Man of Lawlessness.  The martyrs have asked “How long”, and the sixth seal, the rapture, and the beginning of God’s wrath against the earth is His answer.  But first, the 144,000 must be sealed, and while that is in progress, those just raptured are judged at the bema judgement, never to be judged again.  They will live in heaven forevermore. That is where we are now, at the end of Revelation Chapter 7.

Revelation Chapter 8
As Chapter 8 begins the seventh seal is finally opened.  The result is silence for half an hour.  It is strangely anticlimactic after all that happened during the Sixth Seal.  It might be better to think of this silence as a sort of calm before the storm. This seems like a very short time.  The church is out, the 144,000 are sealed, wrath is about to begin and intertwined with that Israel is finally to see fulfillment of the covenant, and become the people they were always supposed to be.  This is a moment unlike any other in history.  After the silence seven angels are given seven trumpets. Let’s take a look at the identities of these seven angels?

In the ESV translation, they are called the seven spirits who stand before God.  I believe these are the same seven angels that we saw back at 4:5 and perhaps in 5:6.  There is this verse that may give us a clue as to who these angels are:  19 And the angel answered him, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news. [Luk 1:19 ESV].  We could make an argument that Gabriel, an archangel who stands before God, is one of the seven angels given a trumpet here.  I believe further that these seven are the seven angels over the seven dominions of the earth.  This verse from Daniel I think supports that position:  13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, [Dan 10:13 ESV]. Michael is also an archangel, and perhaps all seven of these with trumpets are archangels.  I connect Michael to one of the dominions because of this verse:  9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." [Jde 1:9 ESV].  Now in context, this verse is not about identifying exactly who Michael is.  But it does say he was powerful enough to contend with the devil.  We can surely make the argument that possibly Moses died in the dominion overseen by Michael, and therefore it was Michael who was responsible for intervening in the devils plans.  So from all that, the seven spirits before the throne of God were previously seen as the seven burning torches before the throne in Chapter 4 and are now seen as seven angels – seven archangels to be specific.  Each is over one of the seven dominions of the earth (we will see much more about this later), and now these are designated to blow their trumpets and bring the final wrath of God toward the earth.    

Next we see another angel, this one with a censer, and he is given incense to offer with the prayers of the saints.  Back in the Old Testament, there was also an altar upon which incense was burned.  In the Tabernacle constructed in the wilderness under the direction of Moses, the last piece of furniture before the veil behind which was the Ark of the Covenant, was the altar of incense.  God met the people above that Ark, and incense was to burn continually there.  Here in Revelation 8, the altar of incense is before the throne of God itself.  The prayers of all the saints go up with all this incense, perhaps in an appeal to God to proceed with pouring out his wrath.  We saw before that the martyrs under the altar were already asking when the time for vengeance would come, and now we see that same appeal made to God directly.

Next this angel fills the censer he has with fire from this altar of incense that stands before the throne of God.  Here is the verse:  5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. [Rev 8:5 ESV].  I see no reason to believe this fire is taken from a different altar than the one before the throne.  If that is so, then the fire would have been flame from the burning incense.  It is burning incense that this angel throws down.  This incense was holy, because it was offered to God.  What it touches would be made holy also.  So perhaps the way to see this is that the incense is thrown down to make holy the chosen of Israel.  The chosen ones who will be saved here in the last days as the final redemption of Israel.  It is telling that it says the angel was given “much incense” because that seems to imply – with this interpretation – that many Israelites are to be saved in these last few years of the earth.

Next we see thunder, rumblings, lightning, and an earthquake.  We need to decide whether these events are the result of the incense thrown down from heaven, in which case they likely take place on earth, or whether this “selection” of the Chosen People to fulfill God’s promises provokes a reaction in heaven itself.    

To understand these things, let’s take a look at other places in Revelation where we see corresponding words.  Note that many of these words repeat, surely to draw our attention to events that we ought to recognize as similar, or recognize has “markers” of significant developments.  We see these words repeated four times, in Revelation Chapters 4, 8, 11, and 16.  Here are the relevant verses:

5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, [Rev 4:5 ESV]
5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. [Rev 8:5 ESV]
19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. [Rev 11:19 ESV]
18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. [Rev 16:18 ESV]

So the passage from Revelation 4 clearly says that these instances of lightning, rumblings, and thunder came from the throne itself.  It seems likely to me that these same manifestations when seen again in Chapter 8 also come from the throne.  In 8 there is the addition of an earthquake.  Can there be an “earth”quake in heaven?  Well it could be that this was the only word that John had available to him to describe the shaking.  But looking ahead to Chapter 11, we see heavy hail added to the signs, and that seems far more likely to be describing something happening on earth.  This idea gains credibility when we see that the earthquake in Chapter 16 is the greatest earthquake “since man was on the earth”. This seems to place the earthquake in 16 squarely on the earth, and I think that makes it likely that the earthquakes in 8 and 11 are also on earth.  A further point is that in Chapter 4, when John is describing the scene in heaven and earth is not in view at all, there is no earthquake.  Therefore, we would interpret the lightning, rumbling and thunder to proceed from the throne of God, perhaps heralding events that are about to occur.  The corresponding sign on earth would be an earthquake, presumably a worldwide earthquake.  

There is one more sequence in these four verses that we ought to notice.  The first time it happens, we are at the throne itself, before any of the sevens begin – there will be seven seals, seven trumpets, seven thunders, and seven bowls.  The second time is right after the Seventh Seal has been opened, the altar before the throne is the focal point of events, and the fire is thrown down, possibly heralding the salvation of Israel on the earth.  In the third case, in Chapter  11, the Seventh Trumpet has just sounded heralding the presentation of all the kingdoms of earth to Jesus, and the Temple of God is the focal point, and has opened up in heaven.  Finally, in 16, these things happen just after the Seventh Bowl is poured out and a loud voice declares that “It is done”.  In the next few verses we see a sort of final devastation of planet earth.  So the rumblings in each case occur as markers of the end of a phase of God’s wrath against those who have rejected him right up until the end.  The focal point moves from throne, to altar, to temple, to Earth.  Surely that sequence is important, but I have no theory on the progression of the focal point.  

In 8:7 the First Trumpet sounds and is followed by hail and fire mixed with blood.  We have a hard time imagining what this combination of things might look like.  Was the hail on fire?  Was the blood flammable in some way?  Fire seems to be the primary factor here because we are told that a third of all the trees on earth are burned up, along with all the all green grass on earth.  It also says that a third of the earth itself was burned up.  We recall here that there were four angels who stopped the wind back at the Sixth Seal, and we speculated that the earth might grow steadily hotter since normal air currents were stifled.  We don’t know how much time has passed since then but I would imagine that all the vegetation near the equator is already pretty crispy when the fire and hail and blood begin to fall.  They might well go up like tinder, and any cities, towns, or dwellings – anything in the area that was flammable – would be burned up also.  We note that this judgement affects the earth itself – there is no mention of direct harm to men, though surely there will be deaths incidental to these fires.  And if there weren’t any food shortages before, there certainly will be after so much vegetation has burned.  The atmospheric oxygen would be somewhat depleted by this much fire, and with the tree and grass gone, it will not be replaced in a hurry.  This first trumpet alone is going to be devastating to all those still alive on the earth, and this is only the beginning of God’s wrath.  

The Second Trumpet sounds in 8:8.  The result is that “something like a great mountain” also on fire, is thrown into the sea, with devastating effects similar to the First Trumpet, but against water rather than land.  A third of the sea turns to blood.  I believe as a result of this, a third of sea creatures die, and also a third of all the ships are destroyed.  We don’t have a lot to go on here.  As I read it, the third of the sea that turns to blood is likely contiguous.  The fish present in the that part of the sea can no longer breathe – their gills weren’t made to extract oxygen from blood, and so they die.  But what “kills” the ships?  The density of human blood is 1.06 gm/cc or so – just a bit heavier than fresh water.  The specific gravity of sea water is about 1.03 gm/cc, so the ships don’t sink because of any big drop in buoyancy.  We have to conclude then that it is the impact of the burning mountain-like object hitting the sea that kills them, perhaps in a sort of basin-wide shock wave and tsunami that overcomes all the ships near the point of impact.  This second trumpet should also be seen as a judgement on the earth itself.  We should also consider the possibility – as we have explored before – that this burning object is in fact an angel dispatched to damage the sea.  Remember that Revelation 8 is John’s description of what this event looks like as he sees it from heaven itself.  Perhaps an angel racing to earth to turn the sea to blood and sink ships looks like a great mountain – or fiery asteroid colliding with earth.

The Third Trumpet sounds in 8:10.  Here we see a “star” fall from heaven, on fire and blazing like a torch, which affects a third of the rivers on the planet, and all the springs of fresh water.  This phenomenon is named Wormwood.   It is hard to see how a single object with a single point of impact could affect a third of all the rivers.  But if it breaks up as it falls through the atmosphere, pieces could fall in rivers over a wide area.  And, as in the Second Trumpet, if Wormwood is the name of an angel rather than the name of a star, the angel can purposefully embitter whatever rivers he chooses.  Because the water is now too bitter to drink, “many people die”.  They will die of thirst.  Again, judgement is on the earth, though men die as a result.

The Fourth Trumpet sounds in 8:12.  This results in a third of the sun, of the moon and a third of the stars dim.  Since we don’t see anything fall from heaven to bring this about, we might speculate that smoke from the fires as vegetation burned, from the impact of the burning mountain, and from the flaming star have put a lot of smoke and debris into the air.  This will interfere with light from all three of the sources mentioned and so the day will not be as bright and the night will be darker than usual.  We would also expect it to get a lot colder with less sunlight reaching the earth.  Think of how it gets cooler and darker during an eclipse even though visually the sun still appears to be unchanged.

Notice how the results of the first three trumpets seem to amplify, or contribute to Fourth, just as we saw the Fourth Seal as a sort of combined consequence of the first three.  It is interesting that the first three trumpets cause something to "fall" from heaven onto the earth and damage it - all the wrath is coming from above - and then the Fourth Trumpet affects sun, moon and stars, dimming them down, mitigating their light.  It is easy to imagine all these things happening in quick succession if not simultaneously, and combining to bring about more destruction and death than they could if sequential.  Burning hail and blood - burning up trees, grass, earth and putting a ton of smoke in the air, then a mountain burning with fire hits the ocean - a meteor perhaps burning its way through the atmosphere and then sending up smoke and steam and debris of all kinds into the air, and then Wormwood, blazing like a torch, falls to earth, and poisons much of the fresh water of the planet, maybe from poisonous heavy metal fallout as it impacts the earth.  All of these things would send smoke, debris, and ash into the atmosphere, reducing the amount of light that could get to earth.  

Think for a moment about the combined effects of the first four trumpets.  Much of the planet has burned, especially the vegetation.  Most crops will fail and food will be in short supply.  It will be difficult or impossible to grow more because the oxygen is depleted and there is only a fraction of the sunlight that was there before.  Domestic animals – that is, non-plant based food sources - are also likely to die from these fires.  Man cannot turn to the rivers or the sea for fish to eat because a third of the rivers are dead and a third of the fish are dead.  Somewhere along here, there will be widespread unmitigated panic.  Imagine the escalating violence as people try to secure some kind of food security for the future.  Wouldn’t this be an appropriate time for a popular world leader to seize the world’s remaining food supply and distribute it only to those who swear loyalty to him – those who have some identifying mark to show that they have chosen him as their leader?  

I notice also that as each of the first four seals was opened, a horse and rider – an angel on a horse – was dispatched to earth.  In the first four trumpet judgments, events may also have been carried out by angels, these just don’t ride horses and look more like objects falling from heaven.

Let’s look closely at the final verse of Chapter 8:  13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!" [Rev 8:13 ESV].  Doesn’t this verse seem almost overly descriptive?  An eagle, with a loud but easily understandable speaking voice, cries out from DIRECTLY overhead.  I would point out first of all that eagles do not talk.  Donkeys have talked on occasion, but talking eagles are unprecedented.  But remember this description from Chapter 4?  7 the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. [Rev 4:7 ESV].  I suspect that the announcement here is being made either by this living creature from Chapter 7, or some other angel of the same type.  Since John is still near the throne, and that creature looks like an eagle in flight, and is directly overhead, I believe it is in fact the living creature from Chapter 4.

Now look at the message he brings.  He says "Woe, woe, woe...".  A warning, certainly, of horrendous things to come.  He addresses those who dwell on the earth -  men.  I believe his message is essentially that those first four trumpets were about the earth, but these next three are about those who dwell on earth – they will affect mankind.  We get the impression that not a lot of people died during those first four trumpets.  The deaths seemed more incidental than primary.  But the eagle tells them that the next three are about men.  

Let’s consider one more idea that sometimes comes up about the seals and the trumpets.  Some think these judgments happen simultaneously.  That is, the trumpet judgments are happening at the same time as the seal judgments.  And perhaps the thunders and the bowls are also happening at the same time.  They see each of these “sevens” as concurrent in time, if not in actual effect, rather than each playing out in turn.  As I look back at our interpretation, I do not see a way to "overlay" the trumpets and the seals.  We know that John is still in heaven, observing what happens there as cause, and also observing what happens on earth as effect.  He describes them in sequence, rather than giving us the First Seal and First Trumpet, followed by the second of each and so on.  So I see no support for saying the seals and trumpets are concurrent.  

I would also point out that other than the previous argument that it was Jesus opening the seals, there is nothing to say that the 70th week didn't start until the trumpets.  And maybe that is in fact marked by the fact that Jesus himself ends the church age with the seals and then the rapture, and then the wrath of God begins with ANGELS carrying out the wrath of God.  After all, we don’t see the Lamb that was Slain again.

Chapter 9

As Chapter 9 begins, we should note that John's position has not changed.  He sees the instigation of the seal and trumpet judgments as they originate in heaven, near God’s throne, and whatever he sees on earth he sees from his position in heaven, looking down on events.  His viewing of the seals rolls right into the blowing of the trumpets.  He is watching a chronological unfolding of events.  Some are perhaps very close together, and some overlay previous events still in progress.  Even so, it seems clear at this point that the seals and trumpets are not simultaneous, nor are the trumpets simple amplifications of the seals.

In verse 1 the fifth trumpet is sounded and results in a fallen star receiving the key to the bottomless pit.  Obviously, this “star” is not something like Rigel or Betelgeuse or Vega.  As we have seen several times before, especially in Rev 6:13 where “the stars of the sky fell to the earth”, the word translated star is from the root word “aster” in Greek.  This is not a complicated word to translate.  It means “star”, either figuratively or literally.  I think in this case it is quite obvious that we need to understand the word in its figurative sense.  We are talking about an angel here.  

There is also another detail we ought to notice.  As it reads in ESV, the "star" was already on the earth.  It doesn't say a star falls after the trumpet sounds.  The KJV said that:  1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. [Rev 9:1 KJV], but pretty much ALL later translations say it more like the ESV, where John saw a star “fallen from heaven to earth”.  

The word translated “fallen” is in the perfect tense.  This means it is an action completed in the past, once for all, with no need of repetition.  This angel “fell” in the past, and is now about to perform a task.  Since it is so obvious here that “aster” means angel, we ought to ask ourselves if, back in 6:13, all those stars that fell were in fact angels with assigned tasks and duties to carry out as we work our way through the wrath of God to the return of Christ.  Perhaps these stars are not so much “falling” from the sky as translated in English, but “sent to earth” for very precise reasons.  And if that is the case, we may see many of those angels doing things as we continue in Revelation.

So what is it that this angel is to do?  As we understand it at this point, verse 1 says that an angel that was already here obtains THE key to THE bottomless pit.  The definite article is present before both key and pit, meaning that there is ONLY ONE bottomless pit, and ONLY ONE key that can open it.  Further, in the ESV where it says this key “was given” to an angel, the verb “was given” is in the aorist tense, which says the action took place but says nothing of the exact timing of the transfer.  This angel may have been given this key before he fell from heaven to earth.  In fact, this seems to be the most likely case.  

This angel that has the key, then, must be a very trusted angel.  This is not one of the angels that rebelled with Satan and somehow stole this key from heaven.  If Satan had been in possession of this key since his fall, he surely would have used it to open the pit before now.  So this angel is sent from God, and when the Fifth Trumpet sounds, he uses the key to open the bottomless pit.  That pit is full of demons of all sizes, shapes, and ranks, and they have been locked in that pit perhaps since Satan’s initial rebellion.  These demons also know they won’t be loose for very long unless they can overcome God’s plans, so they come out vengeful about their long incarceration and bent on the destruction of mankind.  We need to understand here that though it is God unleashing wrath on the earth, these are not God's angels torturing unsaved man after the rapture, but angels who followed Satan, who hate man with an unquenchable hatred and without pity of any kind.  This is why wrath is so merciless.  Consider also that these followers of Satan are now tormenting those left on earth who are also followers of Satan.  These people have ALL rejected God.  What a twist that God would use Satan’s own angels as tormentors to sort of drive home to these people the error of the choice that they have made.

Let’s look closely now at what happens when the bottomless pit is opened:  2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. [Rev 9:2 ESV]  This sounds a bit like what we know as "nuclear winter".  Before the nuclear bomb, this sort of “darkening of the sky” followed huge volcanic eruptions.    

This section I think also gives us additional information about the signs in the heavens that accompanied the Sixth Seal.  Remember that the sun turned black and the moon turned red.  A black sun gives no light at all, so if now, in Revelation 9, the smoke from the bottomless pit darkens the sun, then the sun was no longer black.  We can conclude from this that the signs at the Sixth Seal were temporary, as an eclipse is temporary, and not permanent changes in the sun, moon and stars.

Moving on then, from the smoke escaping from the pit come these creatures:  3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. [Rev 9:3 ESV]  This describes the release of previously sequestered supernatural creatures so that they are free to roam the whole planet.  I think these creatures are fallen angels, demons in fact, from Satan's initial revolt.  I think some of them may have been locked in this pit since before man was created.  Perhaps their numbers grew when Jesus was given power over all things on heaven and earth before his crucifixion.  Remember this appeal from Legion to Jesus?  30 Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," for many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss. [Luk 8:30-31 ESV].  I think this abyss is the same pit that we see here in Revelation 9, and we see that Jesus had the power to confine demons to that pit.  I think Jesus may have ultimately confined many more demons to that pit, and that is why we don’t have the cases of demon possession now that seem to have been so common in Jesus’ day.

Some limitations are imposed on these supernatural creatures. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. [Rev 9:4 ESV]  So they are not allowed to harm at all any green thing still alive on the earth.  They also cannot kill men, but their stings, like scorpion stings, will hurt for five months.  They can only sting those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.  So they cannot touch the 144,000, but everyone else is a target.  Now think about that…IF there are only 144,000 sealed with God’s seal on the whole planet, yet all Israel is returning to the Promised Land, then all those returning are subject to the stings of these creatures.  They are not exempted…unless salvation in that day somehow results in this mark on the forehead.  I find no verse anywhere that predicts such a generalized mark.  Perhaps this statement is an indication that in fact, the remnant of Israel saved by God for the fulfillment of his promises to Abraham, is only 144,000 strong?

In verse 5 we are given a summary of what these creatures CAN do:  5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. [Rev 9:5 ESV]  I cannot tell whether this verse says these creatures can only be active for five months, or that the stings will hurt for five months.  It is hard to know whether these creatures will roam the earth stinging and stinging again for five months, or attacking in a sort of blitz, and all those unlucky enough to be stung suffer for five months after they are gone?  Looking back at Rev 9:3, these creatures are called locusts.  Locusts do great harm in a short time and then disappear as quickly as they came.  There is also this verse which comes just a little later in the chapter:  10 They have tails and stings like scorpions, and their power to hurt people for five months is in their tails. [Rev 9:10 ESV].  The English wording seems pretty clear that it is the sting that lasts five months.  So if I had to pick one, I would say the pain from the stings will last five months, rather than the locusts stinging for five months.

We are also told that the unrelenting pain these creatures inflict will cause men to seek death.  Then look at this next verse:  6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them. [Rev 9:6 ESV].  This seems to imply that no one will be allowed to die during the Fifth Trumpet, such that even suicide attempts will invariably fail.  But I think it is more likely that those who have been stung will wish the stings would just go ahead and kill them, rather than making them suffer so much.  I don’t think this verse is about suicide, but is instead driving home just how unrelentingly painful these stings are going to be.    

Next, beginning in verse 7, we get a very prolonged and detailed physical description of these creatures.  They do not belong to nature.  They are unlike anything in nature.  They have no riders guiding them but operate independently.  We are not told how many creatures there are, but there would seem to be a lot of them.  

They look like horses prepared for battle.  I picture horses wearing armor like we see in depictions of jousting tournaments, but that is much too current.  They would be decked out as they were in John’s time, perhaps as horses prepared by Roman cavalry.  We actually have a pretty good idea what that looked like.  There was no armor on Roman cavalry horses but we do learn from vs 9 that these horses will have breastplates like iron.  There would be a saddle blanket, for lack of a better word, and there was a sort of banner that ran around the horse’s chest, showing perhaps the colors of the cavalry unit to which it belonged.

We also learn that these creatures, these horses, have crowns on their heads.  Perhaps these crowns are a symbol of rank in the armies of Satan.  If we understand that these creatures were confined in a pit with demons, then it makes sense that they also are demons, and given their power over men, they are likely high ranking demons.  They were perhaps leaders in Satan’s revolt against God, and that is why they have crowns.  In the next verses we see that the horses have men's faces and women's hair.  Isn’t that an interesting contrast?  Do we read this as beards and very long hair?  Again, remember that as John describes these previously unseen and unknown creatures, he can only describe them in terms of what he has seen in his own lifetime.  In that day, men had beards and women wore their hair long.  

In verse 9 we learn that these creatures have wings and that they can fly.  John is impressed with the sound that they make when they fly, like chariots with horses going into battle.  Think thunder, rolling and at a constant pitch.  The section concludes with a description of their tails and their sting.  When we read this we picture a scorpion’s tail on a horse.  A great huge stinger searching for victims.  

Then lastly, we see that though these creatures have no riders, they do have a King over them.  This King is known and named.  He is “the angel of the bottomless pit”.  The definite article here makes it clear that only one in the pit held this title.  He is in charge of them all.  His name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek he is Apollyon.  Abaddon means destruction or ruin in Hebrew.  Apollyon means destroyer in Greek.

From this detailed description, I think we can add a bit more to our understanding of these creatures that descend on earth from the smoke like locust onto a green field and yet are as large as horses.  The horses have crowns and act individually but they are ruled over by a King, an angel-king who had charge of that bottomless pit, that abyss.  We have to see all these creatures as angels.  I think the verse mentioned above from Luke 8 tells us that these are all fallen angels.  We have seen before that there is a hierarchy among the angels.  Since these locusts/horses are all wearing crowns, we should put them pretty high up in the hierarchy.  Note that in all the New Testament descriptions of demons being cast out, no one ever physically sees the demon.  However, in this case, given John’s detailed description of these creatures, I think we have to conclude that men will “see” them.  Perhaps this class of evil angels was created such that they are visible to mankind, and for that reason in addition to the horror that they inflict on men, God also created a place to confine them from the time man was created until the Fifth Trumpet should sound.  Perhaps God created them in the first place knowing that they would be unleashed at this very time and for this very reason.  Why wouldn’t we expect God to create angels for every purpose he might have on earth, including angels to carry out his wrath?  

These creatures will, I think, enjoy inflicting pain on mankind.  These creatures perhaps fell from positions of power, and expectations of high positions in Satan’s domain after God was defeated, who found themselves confined for millennia  in a dark pit from which they could not hope to escape.  Why were they there?  Because God planned to create man, and to favor man though he was created weak and small compared to these angels, and so men walked on the earth while these creatures stayed in the dark.  They will come out of that pit full of hatred and with not a shred of mercy in them.  

Then verse 12.  The first woe is over...but there are two yet to come.  Again we see that the trumpets, like the seals, are in sequence rather than concurrent.  They are coming in waves.  As man begins to recover from the locust invasion, the next trumpet sounds, bringing more of God’s wrath, and we would expect each woe to be worse than the one before.  

Next, presumably at the end of approximately five months, the Sixth Trumpet sounds.  Here are the verses:  13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." [Rev 9:13-14 ESV]

So the trumpet is sounded, and then this voice from the altar gives a command to the angel who blew the trumpet.  This angel is told to release four angels who are bound at the Euphrates.  What can we say about these four angels?  I think the tendency is to call them demons because of what they are doing and because it says they are bound.  But let's remember that this is God's wrath, and let's remember the history of His wrath.  He is patient beyond what any human being would call reasonable.  He holds off and waits and forgives and exhorts and offers.  But when the line is finally crossed, people get what they have earned, what they deserve.  This is not random and arbitrary punishment.  This is the end of time, predicted, foretold, and warned of throughout the Bible.  And yet, mankind gets to it anyway.  If these were prepared for this very time, then these are likely NOT demons, but God's angels carrying out his will.  

Furthermore, no pit is mentioned, no key is necessary to release these four angels.  They were bound, but not locked in a dark hole.  In this context, I think we should see these as angels loyal to, and certainly subject to, the commands of God.  These are not angels who followed Satan and wound up bound at this spot, but angels of great power, created for this moment in time, when they are to be released to do what they were created to do.  

These angels are bound “at” the Euphrates.  That word translated “at” is just a little preposition, and as such there are many different interpretations.  At, on, upon, over, against and so on.  The precise word used seems to be based on the case of the noun with which it is used.  Here, the noun is in the dative case, is to be translated “at”, and has a connotation of “rest”.  Again we see that these angels are bound, but not by chains or pits.  They are “resting” at this place until the appropriate time for them to go to work, according to the command of God.  The word translated “release” is translated the same way in this verse, and I think gives us a good sense of what is meant:  2 saying to them, "Go into the village in front of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. [Mat 21:2 ESV].  The donkey is not tied up as punishment.  The donkey is not incarcerated.  It is restricted in its movements until such time as its master requires something.  One last example to corroborate this understanding:  15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. [Rev 9:15 ESV].  Surely this verse confirms that these four angels were created for this very time.

The voice comes not from God on his throne, though we know from previous descriptions that he is there.  The voice is from the golden altar before the throne, just as the altar of incense was before the veil in the Tabernacle.  This altar represents prayers offered to God, and perhaps this voice is the answer to all those suffering believers who have prayed for God to avenge them?

Verse 15 also tells us what these four were to do, and an awful task it is.  These angels are to kill on a massive scale.  This is not the first time in the Bible that an angel was sent to kill.  This verse is an example:  23 For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you. [Exo 12:23 ESV].  Surely this destroyer – which is “bound” from carrying out his purpose if there is blood on the doorpost – was sent by God to kill massive numbers of Egyptians.  We find a second example here:  15 So the LORD sent a pestilence on Israel from the morning until the appointed time. And there died of the people from Dan to Beersheba 70,000 men. 16 And when the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD relented from the calamity and said to the angel who was working destruction among the people, "It is enough; now stay your hand." And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. [2Sa 24:15-16 ESV].  In the second verse here we see that the pestilence is in fact the work of an angel.  And notice how God orders this angel to “stay your hand”.  God “binds” the angel, so that no further harm is done.  I believe these angels, created to carry out his aspect of God’s justice, are unstoppable by any but God himself.  

Right along here, we should ask ourselves why God would create “death angels” and the troops they command.  We need to understand the death angels as a “kind” of angel created to kill justly, indiscriminately and without remorse.  We see this trait in some people – or a shadow of this trait.  We must also understand that if God created angels with such characteristics, we know that it had to be “within God’s personality” that such a thing is occasionally necessary.  And remember that we, too, are created in God’s image.  What a thought that is!  


One last point about these four angels.  In contrast to the locusts released from the bottomless pit, the four angels from the Euphrates are ordered to kill.  Those from the pit were ordered NOT to do so.  The angels at the Euphrates were at rest until called for.  They are obedient and will start and stop when commanded to do so.  The locusts were under lock and key because they were rebellious angels of Satan, and would do as Satan commanded them.  Therefore, I think we are looking at very different kinds of angels here.

Next, we get this verse:  16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. [Rev 9:16 ESV].  If you do the math on that you get 200,000,000.  Two hundred million mounted troops.  This is not just “a big number” to say that the troops were uncountable, as we sometimes see because John goes to the trouble of telling us that he “heard their number”.   So four “death angels” if we may call them that, given 200,000,000 mounted troops with which to kill 1/3 of the people remaining on earth.  So how many is that?  As I write this in 2023, the population of the planet is approaching 8 billion, so let’s start there.  We saw back in Revelation 6 that ¼ of mankind was killed.  So that would be 2 billion, leaving 6 billion.  Now a third of those who remain are to be killed.  That’s another 2 billion, and when completed, the world’s population will have been reduced by half in only a few years.  If 200,000,000 mounted troops are to kill 2 billion people, the average soldier would need to kill ten people.  Though the numbers are staggering, we should note that in practical terms, this probably won’t take a very long time.  It is also possible that with this many troops, the locusts may also be defeated or pushed back into the pit.  We really aren’t told why the locusts stop their stinging.

Beginning in verse 17, John describes these troops in detail just as he did the locusts.  The first thing we learn is that there are “horses” once again, but this time the horses have riders.  And we’re told how the riders are dressed.  They have breastplates the color of fire, sapphire, and sulfur.  Let’s take these one at a time.

First, let’s think about the color of “fire”.  We probably think of red or orange or a combination of those two.  Both carnelian and jasper have these colors.  Remember this verse…3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. [Rev 4:3 ESV].  That is in the first description John gives us of the throne room in heaven.  Those colors are associated with the appearance of God Himself.  So we might see this as indicating the authority by which these troops are directed.

Second, we have previously seen sapphire in these verses:
10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. [Exo 24:10 ESV]
26 And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance. [Eze 1:26 ESV]
1 Then I looked, and behold, on the expanse that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in appearance like a throne. [Eze 10:1 ESV]
Saphhire then is always mentioned as being near the throne of God.  So we might conclude from this that sapphire identifies these troops as servants of God, perhaps as those worthy to be very close to his throne.  

And third, there is sulfur.  There are many references to sulfur in the Bible.  Here are a few that should be familiar:  
  24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. [Gen 19:24 ESV]
33 For a burning place has long been prepared; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it. [Isa 30:33 ESV]
22 With pestilence and bloodshed I will enter into judgment with him, and I will rain upon him and his hordes and the many peoples who are with him torrential rains and hailstones, fire and sulfur. [Eze 38:22 ESV]
Sulfur is invariably associated with God’s vengeance.  I think it is clear that the colors of these breastplates are not just random, and not just pretty.  The breastplates identify the wearers as loyal servants of God, and their purpose is to effect God’s vengeance.

Next we learn that the heads of these “horses” look like the heads of lions.  Think heavy manes and fearsome teeth and fear-provoking roars.  These lions sort of “breath fire” in that fire, smoke and sulfur come out of their mouths.  

We might also note a contrast between the deaths that occur during the trumpets and what we previously saw with the seals.  In the seals, Death and Hades were given power to kill a fourth of the earth with sword, famine, pestilence, and sword.  So the seals, in the tribulation period if you will, death was indirect in that it was cause and effect from the unfolding events of world government, war, economic collapse, starvation, disease and so on.  In Chapter 9, a third are to be killed with fire, sulfur, and smoke by horses with lion’s faces and snakes for tails, let loose specifically for that purpose.  These are God's own angels doing His own will, and dealing out death directly, purposefully, specifically.

Before we move on, we need to look at the way these troops carry out their instructions.  We don’t have a lot of random riding about and chopping people up with swords, nor do we have flamethrowers or machine guns.  Remember that the horses ridden by these troops have lion’s heads and they “breath out” fire, smoke and sulfur to kill.  It is this breath from the lion’s mouths that kill.  But why would anyone stand around waiting for that to happen to them?  Well there is one more thing to consider here.  As the locusts had scorpion’s tails, these horses have snakes for tails.  And the snakes bite and wound all who get near, but the snakebite doesn’t kill.  What then does it do?  Perhaps it paralyzes.  The snakes bite, and people fall down paralyzed so that they cannot run, they cannot escape, and then the lions breathe out their fire, smoke and sulfur, suffocating those who lie their powerless.  They die, and they know they are dying.  What a horrible, awful scene!

Given all these things, what we learn in the last two verses is practically incomprehensible:  20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. [Rev 9:20-21 ESV]  The direct action of God, the visibility of unnatural creatures, misery, suffering, and unprecedented death are insufficient to affect repentance in those left behind at the rapture.  There is no persuasion that will be effective in the face of such irrational stubbornness and pride.  Those left after the rapture could never be saved.  All that is left for them are the events of the seventh trumpet, the thunders, and the bowls.  Only God’s judgment on earth remains for these.

 

Revelation Chapter 10

As Chapter 10 opens, let’s take a moment to understand where we are exactly in the chronology of the end times.  The Sixth Trumpet sounded back in Chapter 9.  Specific events occurred after it sounded.  The four angels at the Euphrates were released and they set about killing a third of mankind – that is, billions of people.  This gruesome task is apparently accomplished, and Chapter 9 ends with the appalling revelation that despite the deaths of so many by supernatural means, the rest of mankind still refuses to repent.  And then we move to Chapter 10.  I think it is critical to note as we start this that the Sixth Trumpet, the second woe, is complete, and the Seventh Trumpet – the third woe – has yet to begin.  We are in an interim of time here.  

The first thing we see in Chapter 10 is that “another” mighty angel comes down from heaven.  This angel is large enough to set one foot in the sea and the other on land.  This is a physically huge angel unlike any angel previously seen.  This appears to be yet another “kind” of angel.  
The text calls him “another angel”.  Does this mean we have previously seen an angel like this, or does it just mean another angel in the long line of angels that John is seeing?  Remember, each of those seven trumpets was blown by a different angel.  In that sense this is just another, though a very different, angel.  I think this is what John means.  

We ought to also note that the phrase “coming down from heaven” in verse 1 is in the present tense.  That is, John is seeing this event as it is actually occurring.  Compare this to 9:1 where we saw a star “fallen” from heaven to earth.  The Greek tense in that case told us that the falling was over and done with in the past.  That is not at all the case here.  John watches as this mighty angel is moving from heaven to earth.

Note also, I think very importantly, that we seem to have a shift in perspective here.  As translated, the ESV says the angel is “coming down”, as in moving from there to here, rather than “going down”, and moving from here to there.  It seems that John is now located on the earth, and is no longer near the throne in heaven.

Moving on, but still in verse 1, we get a pretty detailed description of this angel.  Based on the particulars of this description it is easy to think that perhaps this is Jesus himself, come down to stand on earth and sea.  Let’s go through the description and see if we can determine with certainty whether this is Jesus or a unique kind of angel.  Checking first with the MacArthur Study Bible, we find that the Greek word translated "another" in verse 1 means another of the same kind.   That is, another created being.  This level of Greek is beyond my understanding, but I think John MacArthur is a pretty good source on that.  

First, we are told this angel is wrapped in a cloud.  Let’s look at some relevant verses from the New Testament.  
9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. ... 11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." [Act 1:9, 11 ESV].  This seems pretty compelling.  Then this verse we will see in the next chapter:
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. [Rev 11:12 ESV].  Here we see a cloud used for transport - very similar to our present context in Rev 10, and as predicted in Acts 1:11.
I think the key thing to notice here is that this angel is “wrapped” in a cloud, where Jesus was “lifted” by a cloud, as are the two witnesses in the next chapter.  

On the Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus and his disciples are surrounded by a cloud – wrapped in a cloud if you will.  From that cloud, God speaks.  We also know in the Old Testament that when Moses went up on Sinai for 40 days and nights, twice, that the whole top of the mountain was wrapped in clouds, and we know that God was there.  Therefore, on closer inspection we see that the reference to this cloud points more to the presence of the Father than the Son.  

Next, we are told the angel has a rainbow over his head.  This is a pretty rare thing in the Bible.  In fact, the word is only used twice in the entire ESV, and both of these uses are in Revelation,  first in Chapter 4 when the throne is described, and then again here.  In Revelation 4, there was an emerald colored rainbow around the throne.  God the Father was on that throne, not Jesus, so again we see that while our first thought is that this might be Jesus, on closer inspection that is not the case.  

The face of this angel is like the sun. We saw that description used back in Rev 1:  16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, [Rev 1:16-17 ESV].  These two verses confirm that the one with a face like the sun was indeed Christ.  So this part of the description we can definitely associate with Christ.

The last item in verse 1tells us that his legs were like pillars of fire.  Back in chapter 1 again, Jesus’ feet are described as “like burnished bronze refined in a furnace”, but his legs are not described at all.  We have seen this description used before, in the Old Testament:  2 Then I looked, and behold, a form that had the appearance of a man. Below what appeared to be his waist was fire, and above his waist was something like the appearance of brightness, like gleaming metal. [Eze 8:2 ESV].  We know that Ezekiel, in these verses, was describing the Father.  

Looking at each aspect of the description separately, we see then that only one is associated specifically with Christ.  And even with this one, we know that the Father’s face is too bright to look upon.  Combining this analysis with the information from the MacArthur Study Bible, we can be confident that this is an angel, and not Christ.  

Next, in verse 2, we get some additional information about this angel.  First, he has a little scroll in his hand, and second he is so very large that he has one foot in the sea and one foot on land.  All we know about the scroll at this point is that it is “little”.  Back in Revelation 5, the one on the throne had a scroll described as “written within and without, and having seven seals”.  There is common description here to tie these two scrolls together but there is nothing to exclude that possibility either.  If this angel standing on the earth now holds the same scroll we saw in Revelation 5, then he was given that scroll by the Lamb.  Remember that it was the Lamb who opened each seal.  I think it may also turn out to be important that the contents of the scroll were never read aloud.  

The final item we are given about the angel concerns his physical size.  Nowhere else in the Bible have we seen a created being of this size.  Leviathan, the largest marine animal yet created is not this large.  Behemoth, the largest created land animal, is not this large.  No angel described thus far in Revelation has been so large.  Compared to the four living creatures seen in both Ezekiel and Rev 1, this angel is much different.  This angel is not a cherubim.  This angel has legs, and is huge.  I think it is reasonable to say that this is perhaps the highest and most powerful class of angel we have so far seen anywhere in the Bible.  This angel has many characteristics that we have previously seen attributable only to Theos, only to the Father.  Surely an angel this large, this unique, and this powerful will be given a unique task that only such an angel could carry out.  So what does this angel do?

Here is the verse: 3 and called out with a loud voice, like a lion roaring. When he called out, the seven thunders sounded. [Rev 10:3 ESV].  The seven thunders “sound”.  It doesn’t say they speak legibly, that they proclaim a message.  It just says “sound”.  Now usually, I am a great fan of the ESV, but looking at the actual Greek words being translated here, I think the ESV translation sort of filters out some very real possibilities for what the words might mean.  Here is how some other translations put that last phrase, with the ESV shown for comparison:
3 …seven thunders sounded. [Rev 10:3 ESV]
3 …seven thunders uttered their voices. [Rev 10:3 KJV and NKJV]
3 …the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices. [Rev 10:3 NASB95].
These are all pretty consistent that the thunders had voices.  There is one more translation we should include here:
3 …the seven thunders answered. [Rev 10:3 NLT].  In this translation, a sort of conversation between the huge angel and the seven thunders is implied.  Looking at these possibilities, we can see how the ESV does seem to limit the possibilities that might come to mind here.

Since there are specific Greek words in the original text for each word – “the seven thunders uttered their voices: - I think we should start there, with what was actually written.  If these thunders had voices, it seems pretty obvious, especially in light of what we have seen about the star that fell from heaven with a key in hand, that thunders might better be understood as a figurative way of talking about seven more angels.  Perhaps each time the “image” used to describe the angels we’re talking about changes, it is because this is a different kind of angel.  We begin to see that possibly there are many kinds of angels, each created for a specific purpose  that God has in mind.  Each type of angel is perhaps uniquely suited by the parameters of its creation, for a very specific task.  And we might ask why would God NOT do things that way, before we argue that He did not.

Now let’s look at a few passages where thunder talked:
29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him." [Jhn 12:29 ESV]. This verse records the impressions hearers had when God himself spoke from heaven.  The point is that some could not distinguish whether they heard an angel speaking or thunder pealing.

1 Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!" [Rev 6:1 ESV].  Here, the voice of an angel is described specifically as sounding like thunder.  This also makes us wonder if the seven thunders are in fact more of the same type of angel as the four living creatures near the throne.

Here are two more, both from Revelation, where the voices of heavenly beings are described as sounding like thunder:
2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, [Rev 14:2 ESV]
6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. [Rev 19:6 ESV].

And if that were not enough, the next verse tells us that the thunders did indeed speak.  Therefore, I think we have ample foundation for identifying the seven thunders as seven angels each with a voice like loud thunder.  And from that, we can now say that the seven thunders each made some kind of announcement, pronouncement, or invocation.  John is given an instruction NOT to write down what the thunders actually said.  Did they all say the same thing, repeating it seven times so that there was no excuse for not hearing and understanding every word?  Did their voices have physical effect on the earth or men or sea or trees or grass as did the seals and trumpets?  We are given no clue as yet.  So let’s move on a bit and see if we learn more looking back at the voices.  

I think this is a good time to recall that the seven thunders are contained fully within the Sixth Trumpet.  The Seventh Trumpet has not sounded.  Also, let’s think back even further and compare the Sixth Seal and the Sixth Trumpet.  After the enumerated events of the Sixth seal, there was a sort of “addendum” where two things happened.  First, the 144,000 were sealed, and second, we saw the great multitude before the throne of God that may, or may not, be the bema seat judgment.  But the point is that after both the Sixth Seal and the Sixth Trumpet, we have this, for lack of a better word, this insertion of additional events.  These two “sixths” parallel each other so closely that it is only prudent to look for clues about each one in the description of the other.  

After the Sixth Seal, note that the 144,000 were sealed and set apart and “immunized” against the coming wrath of God.  Note also that if we are correct that the multitudes before the throne are the raptured church, that they too were saved from the coming wrath and now enjoy heaven in their glorified bodies.  What then might be the subject matter of the voices of the Seven Thunders?  I think our best clues are in the next two verses:
5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand toward heaven. 6 He swore an oath in the name of the one who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and everything in them, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it. He said, "There will be no more delay. [Rev 10:5-6 NLT].
This angel swears by God the Father, by Theos.  This sounds completely wrong for anyone to do at any time.  We are likely thinking of this verse:  12 But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your "yes" be yes and your "no" be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation. [Jas 5:12 ESV].  In context though, James is speaking to his brothers – to Christian men and women, and saying that mankind ought not to swear at all.  James is not telling angels that they ought not to swear.  

In any case, this angel has sworn in the name of God that there will be no more delay.  No more delay…before what?  The answer is in the next verse:
7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. [Rev 10:7 ESV].  This says that when the Seventh Trumpet blows, there will be an end to something.  God’s mysterious plan is what will be no more.  It will be fulfilled in every aspect, over and done.  And what is that mystery?  We have more than enough verses to make this one crystal clear:
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [Rom 11:25 ESV]
6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. ...
9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things, [Eph 3:6, 9 ESV]
32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. [Eph 5:32 ESV]
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ, [Col 2:2 ESV].

I believe, based on these verses, that what is ending is the offer of grace by faith to the Gentiles of the earth.  The Seven Thunders are, in my opinion, seven last warnings, seven last appeals, exhortations, whatever word you want to use, for mankind – for Gentiles in particular but all for Jews - to accept Jesus Christ as their savior according to the gospel.  This grace is the defining characteristic of the church age.  And once the Seventh Trumpet sounds, grace will no longer be offered.  All that was hidden, all that was delayed, all that was revealed in stages, will be completely revealed and understood.  I think that is what it means.  There are no more mysteries.  The wild olive that was grafted in, and the position of which was always quite tenuous, is now pruned back out.  No one else will be saved by grace after this time.  From here on he Law is back in effect, and personal salvation will require perfect obedience to the Law.  Perhaps we should see in this the purpose of Ezekiel’s Temple and the reinstitution of the sacrifices that we will see later.  It will be completely over for the Gentiles – no more can be saved after this – and for Israel, salvation at the end will be like salvation in the desert and in the Promised Land.  Faith is required, and adherence to the Law.

This interpretation fits with what we saw in the Seals.  During the interlude, both Jews and Gentiles are saved from wrath.  That very same kind of thing happens here in the Sixth Trumpet.  The only difference is that in the Sixth Trumpet, it is not those already chosen who are saved, but those who have rejected to this time are given one last chance at the lifeline that is Jesus Christ.

The last four verses of the chapter are very distinct from the first seven.  The scene changes.  Rather than more about what John sees, John moves center stage and becomes the main character.  Even though there are only four verses left in this chapter, I believe understanding the implications of these four verses is critical to understanding the rest of this book.  So we will look at the remaining verses very methodically and then see what conclusions are apparent at the other end.  

First verse of the last four:
8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, "Go, take the scroll that is open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land." [Rev 10:8 ESV].  First we ought to ask who’s voice is giving this order?  John tells us that this is the same voice he heard earlier.  The reference is back to Revelation 1:10, 11 where a voice speaks from behind John.  It turned out a little later in Chapter 1 to belong to Christ. This is the voice that told John to write to the seven churches.  John hears this voice again in Revelaton 4:1, when Jesus tells him to “Come up here!”, observe the throne of God in heaven, and record the things that are to come.  And now, in Rev 10:8, this voice, the voice of Jesus, tells John to go and take this book. This voice also confirms yet again that this giant angel, though he seemed very much like Jesus when first described, cannot be Jesus since Jesus tells John to GO take the scroll, not COME take the scroll.

We also see in this verse a second confirmation of the perspective shift we noted earlier.  John is told to take the book from the angel.  The angel is on earth.  John must therefore be on earth to walk over and tell this giant angel to give him the book.

Before we leave this chapter, there is one little word in here that ought to get our attention.  The scroll is OPEN in the hand of the angel.  An open scroll would be a scroll no longer sealed.  This scroll, I believe, is the one that previously had seven seals on it, and has writing on both sides.  This is the scroll that Jesus opened.  We have only to wonder what exactly is written inside.  

Next verse:
9 So I went to the angel and told him to give me the little scroll. And he said to me, "Take and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey." [Rev 10:9 ESV].  The angel complies with John’s request, but adds a command of his own.  John is told to eat the book – which seems pretty strange to us.  Not only that, but the book comes with a warning.  It will be sweet in the mouth, but bitter in his stomach.  Symbolizing...what?  As we have done before, let’s look for the meaning of scripture in other scripture.  Look how similar these verses are:
9 And when I looked, behold, a hand was stretched out to me, and behold, a scroll of a book was in it. 10 And he spread it before me. And it had writing on the front and on the back, and there were written on it words of lamentation and mourning and woe. [Eze 2:9-10 ESV]
1 And he said to me, "Son of man, eat whatever you find here. Eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel." 2 So I opened my mouth, and he gave me this scroll to eat. 3 And he said to me, "Son of man, feed your belly with this scroll that I give you and fill your stomach with it." Then I ate it, and it was in my mouth as sweet as honey. 4 And he said to me, "Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with my words to them. [Eze 3:1-4 ESV]
In these verses, it is God himself speaking to Ezekiel and telling him to go and prophesy to the people of Israel.  Ezekiel is shown the message he is to preach as the scroll, written on front and back, is spread before him.  But that is not enough.  He is to “consume” the message; the message is to become a part of him, so to speak.  This is accomplished by eating the book.  Ezekiel’s message is meant exclusively for the house of Israel.  He is to go to those who speak his own language and deliver these words.  Ezekiel is warned that they will not believe him, as foreigners would.  Ezekiel is promised protection as he delivers the message that God gives him.  

In Ezekiel’s case also, the book tastes sweet, but there is no warning of bitterness to come.  Even so, just a little later we have this verse: 14 The Spirit lifted me up and took me away, and I went in bitterness in the heat of my spirit, the hand of the LORD being strong upon me. [Eze 3:1-4, 14 ESV].  It seems to me that after eating the book, by incorporating the book, the meanings and the implications of the words become absolutely clear.  In Ezekiel’s case, the words meant that Israel was unlikely to repent.  That ultimately they would rebel again.  That for countless generations, almost all of Israel would be separated from God.  Bitter indeed for a Jew to understand the utter inevitability of such a future.

If it was God telling Ezekiel to eat that book and then go and prophesy to Israel, then it is no giant leap to understand in Revelation 10 that it would be Jesus telling John to eat the little scroll, and then go and prophesy…to whom?  Remember that the rapture has occurred and the 144,000 have been sealed, and salvation by grace will end as soon as the Seventh Trumpet blows.  For whom then, is John to prophesy?  I believe it is to you and me, as we will see shortly.

Then there is this in Jeremiah:
16 Your words were found, and I ate them, and your words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart, for I am called by your name, O LORD, God of hosts. [Jer 15:16 ESV].  Jeremiah is complaining here that no one hears his words.  I think the point for us is this second indication that “eating the book” is another way of saying the book, the words, are made a part of the one eating them.  This is not a casual skimming of a book.  This is studying until there is a full understanding of the words and of their implications.

And that brings us back to the third reference to scroll-eating, which is our current passage.  Given what we learned in the other two passages, John is going to “consume” – it’s just the closest word I can think of to what is meant here – the contents of this book.  They will be sweet in that they are words of God’s final justice dispensed to mankind, but bitter in that so very many will die lost, sentenced to a horrible earthly death, then to judgment, and then to eternity in hell.

In the next verse, we see that John does as he is told:
10 And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it. It was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it my stomach was made bitter. [Rev 10:10 ESV].

And then this last verse:
11 And I was told, "You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings." [Rev 10:11 ESV].  Here is our key.  John must prophesy again.  If we look at the definition of the Greek word “palin” that is translated “again”, we see that it can mean “renewal or repetition of the action”.  The Greek word “palin” is where we get our word palindrome, which is a word that reads the same both backward and forward.  I think the significance of that word “again” being thrown in there is that John is now going to repeat all that he has told us up to this point, but from a different point of view.  He has given us a detailed prophecy of end time events as witnessed from heaven.  Now he will REPEAT THAT PROPHECY.  

To corroborate this idea that John is going to repeat the same prophecy, remember that this scroll is the one previously sealed, now open.  We have yet to learn the details of what is inside.  So what John will tell us about now are not new events, but more detailed descriptions of the same events, written out so men can understand them rather than seeing them played out from heaven’s perspective.  What remains to be seen is whether only the perspective will shift in the retelling, or whether in fact the events will be told in reverse order, as in a palindrome.  I think that as we look at the next several chapters of Revelation with this in mind, we will see that those chapters will fit together hand in glove to what has gone on so far, rather than make us stretch and twist and redefine in an effort to make sense of the book.  

Further, we can now answer the question of John’s intended audience as he “re-prophecies” the end time events.  If we understand that the church is going to be here during the seal judgments, and we understand that John is about to give us a lot more detail – from an earthly perspective – of events on earth leading up to the rapture at the Sixth Seal, then it becomes clear that you and I are the recipients of this second prophecy.  WE, who are living when the Seal Judgments begin will most need to understand the events of that time so that we can remain faithful through tribulation beyond what has ever been seen on the earth up to that time.  And if we understand it this way, look at how many things in Revelation are beginning to mesh like gears in a clock instead of looking like disjointed visions in a series of dreams!  Look at how obvious the it becomes that Revelation was not written for those “left behind” after the rapture removed the church, but for those who will be here, living in such a time, and in dire need of God’s assurance that his own, though persecuted, will ultimately be saved from wrath.

Thus ends chapter 10. 

Chapter 11, Part I
2023 - Chapter 10 ends with a sort or "renewed" mission for John.  We ought to see this as a "closing out" of what came before, and a "new vision" as beginning.  This seems like a strange time to do this because the 6th Trumpet has sounded, but not the 7th.  We might well wonder if the idea is that the 6th Trumpet encompasses quite a bit of time, just as we think the 6th seal included many many events.  The 6th seal included the signs in the heavens and a great earthquake, I believe it holds the rapture, those left on earth pray to be  hidden away from the wrath that is coming, the 144,000 are sealed, I believe the bema judgment of the church takes place in heaven and is followed by rejoicing when tears are forever wiped away.  The Great Tribulation spoken of by Christ in Matt 24 has come to an end as the church is raptured out.  So far as I have seen so far, no reference to 3 1/2 years has come up at all in Revelation.  Not yet.  

2024 - Yesterday, this year, we noted what may turn out to be a very important shift in the location from which John is describing these events.  He was in heaven, but we can be pretty certain that by 10:8, John was walking around on the planet, no longer in heaven.  Today, we will pay close attention to further indications of John's POV.


***
2023 - I think, at this point, that the terms Tribulation, Great Tribulation, 3 1/2 years, forty-two months, and 1260 days are overdue for a thorough analysis.  Let's start with some "facts":
MOST people associate the term Tribulation with the first 3 1/2 years of the 70th week of Daniel.  Daniel's 70th week is about the last 7 years before the Millennial reign begins.
MOST people associate the term Great Tribulation with the last 3 1/2 years of this same 70th week of Daniel.
MANY people believe that the Antichrist (which is a misnomer, and should be MoL) appears precisely in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, on the border between Trib and Great trib.
MANY people believe the rapture occurs BEFORE the 70th week begins, so at the "border" of one of those 3.5 year periods.  2024 - Hmm...that would be Christ appearing before trib begins, and the MoL appearing before gtrib begins...

Let's look at the terms first:
Tribulation:
First, confining ourselves both to the Book of Revelation, AND to references that seem to be about that 70th week.  We also exclude any reference that uses "Great" just before the word Tribulation.:
   9 "'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
   10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. [Rev 2:9-10 ESV]
   These two, in my opinion, are not direct references to end times, but to what the church in Smyrna could expect in the short term.  
Next, looking for the word "tribulation" in the NT, without a nearby "great" and referencing the last days:
   9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. ...
   29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [Mat 24:9, 29 ESV]
   We ought to look at these two verses together, as they are well known from Matthew 24.  
   First, note how far apart in Matt 24 they are.  Note then, that in vs 9, if we take this section of Mt 24 as being about the Tribulation Period, then the church will still be around during that time.  Note also in this same section, in vs 14, it says the gospel is to be proclaimed to the whole world.  For these reasons, and because of verses that come a bit later in Matthew 24, I believe vvs 3-14 are about this present age.  Where we are now.  I could restrict it even more, and I think make a good case, that these verses are about the days from Matt 24 until 70 AD, or perhaps all the way out to 135 AD.  The tribulation spoken of here, to my thinking, is about Roman persecution up to the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, and to the further actions against the Jews in 135 AD.  
   I think vs 29 though, has a very specific "marker" of the time to which it refers, and that the context of this verse will help us a lot in unraveling the whole tgt definition.  The indication is that the end of the "tribulation of those days" is marked by a darkened sun and moon, and falling stars, and a shaken up heaven.  When is this?  Pretty obvious really:
       12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. [Rev 6:12-13 ESV].  This is a pretty good candidate for the day we are talking about.  Note that this is in the sixth seal.  
       And if we now look back in Matthew 24 to see what tribulation is referenced, we find this verse:  21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [Mat 24:21 ESV].  So in fact, in vs 29, the tribulation spoken of is actually the same time that Jesus referred to in vs 21 as great tribulation.  Are there any more clues as to when this is?  There is this one:  15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), [Mat 24:15 ESV].  So we have kind of gone backwards in time as we look at this.  Let's turn it around and go front to back, paraphrasing:  The AoD will appear in the holy place.  After that, a period of unprecedentedly great tribulation begins.  At the end of that period, there will be signs in the heavens and a great earthquake.  Those signs at the end of all that occur at the sixth seal, so all that "great tribulation" that occurs in Matt 24 actually occurs BEFORE the sixth seal.  It is based on THIS correlation that many say the first 5 seals are in the so-called 3 1/2 year Trib, and that the 6th seal begins the Great Tribulation.
       Before we reach any conclusions, let's add this verse:
       3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. [2Th 2:3-4 ESV].  "that day" is clearly defined in vs 1 of this passage, and is a reference to the day of the rapture of the church.  There will be no rapture before the MoL is revealed, setting himself up as god, in the Temple of God.  
       So the abomination of desolation is set up.  The followers of Christ are delivered up into Great Tribulation.  Great Tribulation ends when the signs appear in heaven.  All this from Matt 24.
       The MoL assumes a seat in the Temple of God and proclaims himself "God".  Sometime after this, the rapture occurs.
       Can we make this fit the "traditional", even the "orthodox" view that the rapture occurs BEFORE tribulation?  Only if the abomination of desolation is already set up before the 70th week begins.  
       Here is a HUGE observation about all these things.  Not once has there been any reference, using any term, to a period of 3.5 years.  Why is that?  Because the 3.5 years do not apply to the church.  That only applies to the Jews, and is only important to them, AFTER the church has been raptured.
   Here are the rest of the references:
       19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. ...
        24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, [Mar 13:19, 24 ESV]
       These two verses are pretty obviously Mark's recording of what Jesus said in Matthew 24.  Mark does not use the word "great" to describe the tribulation of those days.  This is a clue that it doesn't in any way coincide with what has traditionally been called the Great Tribulation.  What both Matthew and Mark record about Jesus response to the three questions is that once the MoL and the AoD appear, the church will go through an intense period of persecution, beyond anything the world has ever seen, and that time will end at the 6th seal, when the signs in heaven appear.  I believe those signs are about the rapture.  BUT, we still don't know anything about any 3.5 year periods.  We have not seen that so far.  
       
   Lets look next at the term "great tribulation":
       21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [Mat 24:21 ESV]
       22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, [Rev 2:22 ESV]
       14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [Rev 7:14 ESV]
       Surprisingly, the term only occurs three times in the ESV NT.  Now don't get excited, it only occurs 3 times in the KJV also...the same three verses.  We have already looked at Matt 24:21.  Mark doesn't even call that "great" tribulation.  What is in view in both Mark and Matthew is not at all, not remotely, a specific period of time labeled the Great Tribulation, but a reference to the unprecedented INTENSITY of that tribulation.  Again - Matt 24:21 is not about the time of this tribulation, but about the severity of the tribulation.
       The next reference is in the letter to the church in Thyatira.  This one is difficult...I think the letters to the churches were about near future events.  I don't think they are about end times events.  So by that reckoning, the great tribulation spoken of here is not what we mean.  Now, admittedly, the way it is phrased could be taken as a reference to a period of time - some period of time - and if we really want to insist, we can say it is about the last 3.5 years.  BUT, 3.5 is not mentioned anywhere in the verses around this.  I believe the letters to the churches have to do with the interval up to 70 AD, and at a stretch up to 135 AD.  
       That brings us to Rev 7:14.  So.  IF the rapture is at the 6th seal - which was in Rev 6, and IF we take Jesus' own explanation of what constitutes great tribulation, then these people referenced in Rev 7:14 are the raptured church, in heaven, recently taken out of Jesus' version of great tribulation - as opposed to Great Tribulation - on the earth, following the revelation of the MoL and the AoD.  And once again, there are no 3.5 year periods referenced here, while the church is still on the earth.  
       
SO, in conclusion:     
               1) The Bible never uses the term Great Tribulation to reference a specific period of time.  
               2)  It references intense persecution.  This persecution begins when the MoL is revealed (Mt 24:15), and ends at the rapture (Matt 24:31).  
               3) The terms Tribulation and Great Tribulation are little more than sources of confusion, misapplied to the church age at best - and even then they are more misleading than  helpful - they MIGHT apply to the 70th week as it applies to the Jews.

Next, let's see where the term 1260 is used.  1260 is 3.5 x 360.  360 days is a lunar year.  So 1260/3.5 is 360.  This is a little bit tricky, since it is only in English that it is 1260.  In Greek or Hebrew, it is more like one thousand, two hundred, and either sixty or three-score days.  In the ESV, the number 1260 is actually used, so:
   3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." [Rev 11:3 ESV]
   6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. [Rev 12:6 ESV]
   The Witnesses have authority 1260 days.
   The woman is nourished 1260 days.
   Let's begin by assuming that these periods occur on the boundaries - either the beginning, exact middle, or end of the 70th week.  Then we need to know if these two periods overlap early, overlap late, or are sequential...in which case we want to know which occurs first.  What are the clues?
   The witnesses appear just before the 7th trumpet, so long after the rapture.  For now, let's put this in the last 3.5 years.  NOTE that the church is gone, and this applies only to the Jews.
   The woman is in the following chapter.  When Satan is thrown down from heaven, he attacks the woman.  He attacks the Jews.  NOT the church.  Let's put this also in the last half of the week, concurrent with the witnesses.  NOTE that this means Revelation 11 and 12 overlay each other in time.  Note also that the seventh trumpet has yet to sound at the end of 12, but John's perspective has changed.
   2024 - The words translated 1260 in both these passages are exactly the same.  So I am pretty good with saying these references are to the same, concurrent, 3 1/2 year period.  But there is an important difference in the two passages.  In the first, the verb "they will prophesy" if future active indicative.  This just means that at the time of writing, this had not occurred, but is going to occur, it means that it is the two witnesses just named who will prophesy, and the indicative means this statement is factual, in the sense that it has, is or will occur.  There is no doubt of the occurrence of this event at some point in time.  It is real.  However, the verb used in 12:6 translated "is to be nourished" is in the present active subjunctive tense.  It could hardly be more different in meaning.  The present tense is a simple statement of fact or reality that occurs in actual time.  In most cases this corresponds with our English present tense.  But not always.  Active means the subject of the sentence is the one who is performing the action - in this case, God is doing the nourishing of the women.  Then we get to subjunctive, which describes an action that may or may not occur.  This action is potential.  Given that the woman represents all of Israel, but that only some perhaps will be saved, or only some will reach this sanctuary, the use of the subjunctive makes some sense.  It tells us that the MoL will trying to kill them all, and that he will have at least some success.  I think.

What about 3 1/2?  
   9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, ...
   11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. [Rev 11:9, 11 ESV]
   These are clearly about "days" and not about years.  It makes sense to assume that this death and resurrection of the two witnesses occurs right at the end of the 70th week, when the MoL is nearing his end, and the Second Advent is imminent.  By the reckoning above, the woman's period of protection is also about to end. And, if the 1260 days of the witnesses overlap the 1260 of the woman in the desert - and the SAME TERM is used of both, and only of those two - then the witnesses prophesy right up to the end also.
   
   
Time, times, and  half a time...
   25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. [Dan 7:25 ESV]
   7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. [Dan 12:7 ESV]
   Only Daniel, and only twice.  So...the OT prophets really did not prophesy about events during the church age.  Church age chronological markers are not really found in the OT.  Those old prophets looked right over the church age as if it was not there.  So I think it is proper, necessary even, to say that what Daniel sees is about the Jews.  IF we do that, then vs 25 is about the time of the MoL, in league with Satan, in the pursuit of the woman during those last 3.5 years of the seventieth week of Daniel.  But...this presents some problems, some things with which we must reckon.  Reading the context of Dan 7, we are in the fourth kingdom.  There were 10 kingdoms, but then another overcomes three of those and comes to power.  This 1 over 3 - whom we used to call the Antichrist but now call the MoL - comes to power, and stays in power for 3 1/2 years.  Here is the rub then:  If he comes to power at the beginning of the 70th week, and is recognized at that point AS the MoL, and the intense persecution begins right there....oh my....In 7:25 we have the "saints of the most high".  The church!  In 12:7, we have the holy people - the Jews!  So...the MoL comes to power as the 70th week begins.  For the first 3 1/2 years of that, he persecutes the church.  After 3 1/2 years, the church is taken out at the rapture, and he turns his attention to the Jews for the final 1260 days, dealing the whole time with the two witnesses.  This....this makes a lot of sense, and might be a very useful analysis for interpreting Dan 7 as a prophecy of the church - one of the very FEW OT places where this happens - and then Daniel 12 which is to be interpreted as the last 3.5 years of the 70th, and concern only the Jews.  My my my my...Is this what I have missed all this time?  Is this why I kept returning to the whole tgt designation and the lack of 3.5's?  This seems to be a massive breakthrough!  AND!!!!!  If this analysis is correct, we can say the Tribulation Period is the first 3.5 years of the 70th, when the church is the object of persecution, and that Great Tribulation references the last 3.5 years of the 70th and deals with persecution of the Jews!!!  They are still terrible choices as names for these two periods, but if we DEFINE THEM THIS WAY, then they work!!!!  And we go from "pre-wrath rapture" to precisely mid-trib.  Oh my goodness!!!
   Likewise, in Dan 12:7, we seem to see the demarcation of an absolute and final end of Satan's persecution of the Jews - the holy people - at the end of the 70th week.  He will never touch them after that.  This is the only period where this is true.  
   2024 - After comparing the angel in 10:5 with Daniel 12, which notes are marked 2024 in Chapter 10 above, I do believe, very strongly, that the when the angel of Rev. 10:5 swears his oath, the last 3 1/2 years, precisely, are about to begin.  Daniel only prophesied about his people.  The church age was unknown and unseen to Daniel.  The church left in Rev 6.  Maybe before the first 3 1/2 were over, maybe not.  But at Rev 10:5, the last 3 1/2 years begins.  So.  in the old terminology, Trib goes through Rev 9.  Great Trib begins in Rev 10.
   
I think there is one to go.  What about the references to 42 months.  And here they are:
   2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. [Rev 11:2 ESV]
   5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. [Rev 13:5 ESV]
   These do not seem to "undo" any of the conclusions under time, times,and half a time.  Perhaps...the 42 months the temple is trampled will be the last 3.5, while the Jews are in desperate hiding, the MoL is in the Temple, as is the AoD.  So I would say, right now today, that Rev 11:2 hammers home again that the rapture is in fact THE demarcation of the first half and second half.  So the Gentiles that are doing this trampling are unsaved, unraptured, likely doomed Gentiles.  Rev 13:5 ties almost exactly to Dan. 7:25...except Dan 7 is about the first half...The court of the Gentiles being trampled 42 months is the vs before the witnesses activity that lasts 1260 days.  In successive verses, John used different nomenclature.  So...somehow...I think we have to say that Rev 11:2 is about the last half, and the later verse ties to the earlier time, in the first half.  Not sure why that would be, but it looks like what it says.
   
(((It has taken me 2 1/2 hours to put together the material between the ***'s.  This has been a sort of separate study to nail down the terms, definitions, nomenclature.  I has been most worthwhile, as I think I now have the best "working vocabulary" of the end times that I have ever had.  Now, I will move on into today's reading.  I fear it will be shallow because I am so used up from this word study.))))

***

Revelation 11 Part II

John to measure the temple, except the court of the Gentiles.  So at this time, there will be a temple.  It will be in use.  The Gentile nations will "trample" the outer court for 42 months.
2022 - Vs 1, John is to measure the Temple and the altar with a staff.  No measurements are given - we don't have his results.  What does Ezekiel say about the court of the Gentiles?  Wasn't there something about not even measuring it because it didn't matter?  I can't find it now.  I know it's there, but I cannot re-read all of those chapters this morning just to find it.
2022 - "but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months." [Rev 11:2 ESV]
2024 - We can be certain that the court of the temple in heaven will never be "trampled" by anyone.  So this temple John is measuring is on the earth.  Yet another confirmation that his location has changed.
This seems to be talking about the inner court, right outside the Temple proper, and the court that has the altar.  What this would seem to be talking about is the last 42 months, while the beast is running things.  He will set himself up to be worshiped, even in the Temple of God.  This implies that by the middle of the 7 years, there will be a Temple, rebuilt, somewhere.  Interesting that it does not say they are in Jerusalem.  But it does say "holy city".  Surely that refers to Jerusalem.  So either the Temple is indeed in Jerusalem, or we have to read this sentence as talking about the Temple in one place, with it's court in that place given to the nations, while in Jerusalem - which is a different place - the nations will be trampling.  This seems to be a very far stretch to get at what I want this to say.  It clearly does not say this...or at least it does not say this clearly!  So for this year, let's say that the Temple has been rebuilt, in Jerusalem, but now with the MoL wanting to be worshiped, he has "occupied" the Temple, and welcomed all his worshipers from all the nations to enter the court of the Temple for the duration of his occupancy.  This, I think, is the simplest reading.  Then vs 3...

2023 - I think these first are saying that the MoL has taken up residence in the temple.  John wants us to know that the temple will be rebuilt already when the reality of the MoL goes public.  As persecution of the church begins, SOME Gentiles - perhaps with a mark on their hands or foreheads, will come to worship the beast.  The Gentiles - all unsaved, and once they have the mark, all beyond salvation, will come and worship in this court.  That makes sense.

Two witnesses to prophesy in sackcloth 1260 days (42 lunar months of 30 days each), and have power to prevent rain and so on.  John MacA Study Bible says they prophesy during the second 3 1/2 years of tribulation, when Antichrist will be visibly in power.
2024 - I unreservedly agree with John Mac on this as of this year, because of the direct tie of the angel's oath in Dan 12 matching up with the oath in Rev 10.

2022 - As it reads, it is hard to put this 1260 days anywhere except the last 3 1/2 years.  3*365 is 1277.5, so there are 17.5 days unaccounted for so far.    IF they are to testify for 1260 days, for the last 3.5 years, then when is the last battle, which takes place when Christ returns with his army?  Once they are killed, they lay in the street for 3 1/2 days.  Subtract that from 1277.5 and you have exactly two weeks for these other events.  But I am getting ahead.  For now, they are "going to" testify for 1260 days.  
2022 - Note this.  If we, and MSB, are correct that they prophecy for the remainder of Great Tribulation, then they overlap all the 7's that are still to come.  And if we take from Rev 13 that Antichrist will be recognized by the church before the rapture, and that Antichrist will be in power 42 months - these same, or very nearly these same 42 months that the witnesses will testify, AND we see that the trumpets begin sounding AFTER the sixth seal, and so in the last 42 months, then it is exceedingly difficult to say that the trumpets are concurrent with any of the seals.  They do not overlap at the fourth trumpet.  Can we take the position that the trumpets - or maybe the sixth trumpet because we are seeing so much happen within it - covers very nearly the whole 3 1/2 years?  So how would this work...
Very definitely the trumpets are handed out AFTER the Lamb opens the seventh seal.  The rapture was in the sixth seal.  Power over the earth was given to the Lamb when the book with those seals was passed from theos to christos.  Tribulation was relatively mild, because the Church is still on earth.  I think this justifies separating the seals from the trumpets entirely as to chronology.  The Trumpets herald the beginning of Great Tribulation.  Can we say that trib and great trib are exactly 3.5 years each in duration?  I don't think so.  
My thoughts just will not "organize" this morning...Perhaps the first six seals take less than 3 1/2 years.  But somewhere along there...no that does not work.  That statue must be in the temple before the rapture.  So it must be there during the sixth seal.  The 42 month reign of the one who utters great blasphemy must be marked by some event at exactly 42 months in, with 42 months to go.  Do we know what that marker is?  If we say it is the statue, erected on that day and declared as the mandatory object of worship, then things fit, before and after.  Church comes out at 42 months, at the opening of the 6th seal.  Once they are out, then more horrific judgments can begin.  The seventh seal silence signals a sea change in vengeance against sinners.  The trumpets begin the wrath.  The first four trumpets are judgments on the earth.  The earth becomes a very inhospitable place, and the haves are sharply divided from the have nots.  Crops are destroyed, the oceans' productivity severely reduced along with the means of harvesting what is there, fresh water becomes a rare commodity - crops can't be irrigated, people die of thirst, and then photosynthesis of even those crops which survive to this point, and can be watered, become almost impossible to mature and produce edible food.  The basic essentials of life that God had always provided - even to the sinners of Noah's day - are now cut off.  These four trumpets could happen in a day - almost seem like they would need to happen in a day, but escalating results, a spiral into want, into hunger and thirst, where the beast has control of the food supply, and all must look to him.  Into this, the 5th trumpet sounds and the locusts begin to torture the population.  They were already starving and now they are in pain, danger, terror of supernatural creatures.  We know from Rev 13, and from the 6th seal, that the beast is in power as the locusts begin to sting, yet he will be powerless to stop the locusts.  Yet he will control all the food.  It is likely that as the food supply is devastated at the first trumpet, the mark of the beast will be rolled out.  This is the source of his power.  
THEN, we get the sixth trumpet.  It starts in 9:13.  The seventh does not sound until 11:15.  Much happens in the sixth.  
   First, the four angels at the Euphrates are released.
   Second, they martial their troops, 200 million strong, on horseback.  Horses have to eat.  We discussed those breastplates earlier.
   Third, these troops, under the four angels, begin killing.  Putting down revolts, uprisings, insurrections as increasingly desperate people try to access the dwindling food supply.  
   Fourth, the Seven Thunders sound.
   Fifth, the prophecy that the 7th trumpet WILL at last reveal the mystery of God.
   Sixth, the scroll must be consumed.
   Seventh, in 10:11, the stage is "reset" for MUCH more to come.
   Eighth - see below - the two witnesses appear.
We know that the locusts were around for 5 months.  That leaves 37.  9:12 tells us that the locusts end before the four angels are loosed.  9:20 tells us that once all these are killed, and presumably the planet is brought to heel under the power of the beast, people still do not repent, nor turn from worshiping the desolation or the blasphemer, or the beast or the dragon.  They still follow these...because they still have to eat.  I find no clue as to how long it will take to kill 1/3 of the earth.  (And remember, from 6:8 that a quarter were killed BEFORE the rapture!  Now a third of what was left.)  
Then, still in the sixth trumpet, we have all seven thunders sounding.  All seven thunders - whatever they are - play out.  The way 10:3 is worded, it is possible that all 7 sound together.  But we know from 10:4 that that they both begin and end within the 6th trumpet.  
In 10:7, we have a "prophesy" that the 7th trumpet is coming, and that in the "days", plural, of that trumpet the "mystery of God" will be fulfilled.  The implication is that the 7th trumpet event(s) will take time.  It will not be instantaneous.  Perhaps the events of the 7th Trumpet encompass the remainder of the less than 37 months remaining.
BUT, before all that, the scroll with all seven seals opened, indicating that all the scroll (seal) judgments have run their course, must be eaten.  Sweet that justice is being dispensed, bitter that so many have died.
Then, what I think signals a new Revelation.  John is told, after he has eaten, that there is still much for him to prophesy.  There is still a lot that is going to be revealed about this time period.  We will see that the upcoming prophecy of the two witnesses must "go back" in time chronologically to the beginning of Great Tribulation, the last 42 months.  SO.  Perhaps we are also seeing the Temple measured, as it stood at the beginning of the 42.  Maybe that is why this is here.  This temple is the scene of events concerning the two witnesses, as the scene plays out over the remainder of Great Tribulation.  This is where they will be.  How much falls into place chronologically and geographically when we see this as the reason for measuring the Temple.
NEXT, a part of the Temple is to be measured.  It had to already be there at the sixth seal.  Only now is it to be measured.  Why would that be?  It says those who worship there are also to be measured, not just the physical construction that is the temple.
(That is brings me up to where I was when I just couldn't move forward for confusion this morning.  I think the East Texas time kept me from really putting things together in my mind, and this section has allowed me to go back and recapitulate what has transpired up to now.  It feels organized.  I am well into my third hour, and at best, I have covered 3 verses in Chapter 11.  But I covered a LOT of verses in 6-9 to get back to here.  Perhaps eating a little, as I did earlier, gave me the jump start I needed.  That would be a good thing to remember.)

2022 - I think we have to see vs 3 as the eighth item in the list of things that happen during the sixth trumpet, BUT, they are not eighth chronologically.  They will be active 42 months, so they must begin BEFORE the first trumpet, and remain through all that is to transpire.  They are not killed until the 42 months is up.  They testify then, for the entire 42 months.  So, we see for the first time that we have "backed up" from the prophesy of the 7th trumpet and the eating of the scroll - the last events of chapter 10, to something BEFORE the first trumpet, and which will lay out over the entire 42 months.  They will be near/at/in the Temple, which is why it is important to measure the temple.  These measurements would also, I think, either tie this temple to Ezekiel's Temple in chapters 40-something of that book, or establish that is not that temple but some other.  The measurements of the temple fix the location of the three witnesses.  If we can find something definite about where they are - and I think we will see that later - then we will know where this temple stands.

2022 - The witness are called the two olive trees and the two lampstands, as if this will remind us of where we have seen these two before represented.  In the ESV, this verse - 11:4 - is the only place the word "olive" is  used in Revelation.  The word is used 12 other times in the NT.  In 9 of those, it is used in the phrase "Mount of Olives".  Paul uses it twice in Romans in his analogy of wild and cultivated olive trees being grafted together.  And James uses it once to talk about how fig trees do NOT grow olives.  We are what we are.  So let's assume, without following out the reference to "two lampstands", that we should recognize these terms from the Old Testament, not the New.  I did an OT search, and just look at what I found!
"And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left."" [Zec 4:3 ESV]
"And I said to the angel who talked with me, "What are these, my lord?"" [Zec 4:4 ESV]
"Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" I said, "No, my lord."" [Zec 4:5 ESV]
"Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts." [Zec 4:6 ESV]
"Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?"" [Zec 4:11 ESV]
"And a second time I answered and said to him, "What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?"" [Zec 4:12 ESV]
"He said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" I said, "No, my lord."" [Zec 4:13 ESV]
"Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth."" [Zec 4:14 ESV]
Zechariah didn't know what they were either, and had to ask twice to get a usable explanation.  A lampstand with seven lamps.  Perhaps the lampstand is Michael, chief of all the angels in heaven, and the seven lamps are the seven spirits of God, who do his will in the seven dominions.  Do we ever hear of an angel being anointed?  Not that I recall...so that would make the two anointed ones mortal men.  Who would they be?  Word search on anointed comes up with Aaron, first, as high priest:  "And he poured some of the anointing oil on Aaron's head and anointed him to consecrate him." [Lev 8:12 ESV].  Also this verse: "These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the anointed priests, whom he ordained to serve as priests." [Num 3:3 ESV].  Priests were anointed, always.  So one of the witnesses is a priest, perhaps a high priest, perhaps Aaron himself.  Ahhh...would Melchizedek be the other?  But there is this verse:
"And I will raise up for myself a faithful priest, who shall do according to what is in my heart and in my mind. And I will build him a sure house, and he shall go in and out before my anointed forever." [1Sa 2:35 ESV].  In this verse, God has told Eli that Hophni and Phinehas are not acceptable.  So someone else will become high priest, and that high priest will go in and out before his anointed.  Perhaps both King and High priest are anointed.  Aaron and David?  It was surely not Saul, from whom God removed his anointing.  I think Aaron and Melchizedek make sense too.  What about the two lampstands?
There was only one lampstand in the tabernacle.  Only one in Solomon's Temple.  Hmm...Perhaps each of the witnesses, be they two priests or priest and king, has a corresponding angel in the spiritual realm, and the lampstands represent these "assigned guardians"?  Look at vs 5...
"And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed." [Rev 11:5 ESV].  If anyone would harm "them", the anointed ones, then fire comes from their - the lampstands - mouth to consume them.  So angels protect the anointed.  Then the next powers mentioned.  See how the next powers mentioned seem attributed to a different source than the fire?  Vs 6:
"They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire." [Rev 11:6 ESV].  "their prophesying".  Men prophesy.  The anointed prophesy.  Men shut off the rain.  Men turn water to blood, men cause plagues.  We have seen these things before.  But fire from heaven, that is a spiritual, not a fleshly matter.  This is how I corroborate the idea that the two lampstands are corresponding angels to the two anointed ones.

2023 - In light of the word study on 3.5's above, these are men.  These are people.  They are standing in the temple during that last 3.5 yrs, confronting those who come to worship the MoL in the Temple of God.  You know the MoL wants them dead - but he is powerless.  And any "pilgrim" who bothers them is burnt to a cinder.  And to drive their point home, they send these plagues and droughts on the whole world, so that those afflicted by these things "hate" those who make a pilgrimage to the Temple, and aggravate these.  The elite will hate the witnesses, because they are "nothing", and yet they create this "rebellious" situation at the place where the apostate go to worship...and they cannot be stopped.  They witness in the face of utter hostility.  Who did this before?  Noah?  Daniel? Job?  How would we put Enoch or Moses in here?  It may be none of them.  These two may be alive and well in 70th, and be called to this ministry.  This could be a couple of the 144,000.  The rest are off converting Jews to Christianity, but these two go to the home base of the enemy.  Could easily be that.

2024- I noticed this as to the two witnesses in Rev 11.  First, the construction appears to me to follow the Granville Sharp rule.  This means the terms olive trees and lampstands are describing the same two.  Next, the verse ends with the words "Lord of the earth.  At this point, about whom does this phrase refer?  If the MoL, then it means they will be at the temple when they prophesy.  I don't think this is what it means.  I think Lord of the Earth is Jesus, and that these two stand before him even now, today, in heaven.  I also note that it says nothing about them being brought back to life, nor sent down from heaven.  But remember that Jesus said John the baptist WAS Elijah if you can accept it.  What if these two witnesses are in fact like the OT prophets, born as men for this very time, and given the supernatural protection that God gave Elisha and Jeremiah just to name a couple.  I think Elijah will come yet again, but in spirit, not in body!  Just as he reappeared as John the Baptist!  The other is probably not Moses.  Moses was lawgiver, nothing like Elijah really.  Hmm...Elisha?  Elisha had double the spirit of Elijah.  Elijah was taken up...but his spirit settle don Elisha.  Wouldn't that be interesting!?  Both called down some pretty big deals.  Which one stopped the rain?  Wasn't that Elisha?  He already knows how to do that!!!  Need to look a lot more at the "deeds" of these two prophets.  Seems to be a lot of indication that the two witnesses will be given authority to do many of the spectacular things that Elijah and Elisha did!  And they both lived during a time of miracles!  Ahh....but the plagues are reminiscent of Moses in Egypt too, if that is the logic we are going to use...Elijah and Moses are up again.

Then they will be killed by the beast from the pit, and lay in the street 3 1/2 days.  The earth will rejoice that they are dead.  If this is Enoch and Elijah, they never died.  They do now, as it is appointed to man once to die, and then they will rise in their new bodies, as those at the rapture.  BUT, MSB says more likely Moses and Elijah, and the note on 11:5,6 gives 6 reasons to think so.
2023 - Isn't the beast from the pit Abaddon or Apollyon?  Yes, in Rev 9:11.  So this king of demons is still around at the end.

2022 - But...what about this previous verse:  "They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon." [Rev 9:11 ESV]  Compare to what we just read:
"And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them," [Rev 11:7 ESV]
Why is this not the same beast?  Where did I get that "first of 36"?  There are a LOT of beasts mentioned in Revelation.  Why would we think all 36 times refer to the same one?  An ESV word search today says "beast*" occurs 40 times in 32 verses in Revelation.  Without the plural, 39 times in 31 verses.  So Maybe MSB gave me the 36.  In any case, there is no way all of these refer to a single beast.  Therefore, very possibly this beast that kills the witnesses is the one who led the locusts.

Their time will be during the sixth trumpet, and that period is given as 1260 days - 3 1/2 years.  The whole trib and great trib are 7 years.  This means that the seals and trumpets so far have used up less than 3 1/2 years, because much is left to come.  
We know that events are still chronological though, because vs 14 says the second woe has passed, and verse 15 opens the seventh trumpet.  So all that the two witnesses do is encompassed in the sixth trumpet.  That one trumpet judgement lasts 3.5 years, and the note in MSB implies that all we are going to be told about antichrist will take place during that same time?  So if we are not going on to the seventh trumpet, anything we learn about antichrist will have to be as "flashback".  I don't think BTN makes any allowance for flashback.

The beast of 11:7, mentioned here for the first of 36 times, per MSB, is the antichrist, up from the bottomless pit.
(2022 - No...I don't think so at all at this point.  Antichrist was not in the bottomless pit.  Since up above I found that "beast" is used 39 times, MSB must believe that 36 of those refer to the Antichrist.  There is the beast of the earth, the second beast from the earth, that's two others, and then what is the third one?  Well...how about this one, that came up from the pit?  This is Abaddon.  So maybe the other 36 do refer to Antichrist, but I will be surprised if that is so.  Well...I already disagree that this one in 11:7 refers to Antichrist.  If it was Antichrist, and could kill them, why did he let them go on for 42 months?  The beast of the earth is a man, incapable of killing the witnesses.  We have seen what happens to men who try to kill them.  Only Satan or his angels could do this.  I have no theory as to why they weren't killed by Abaddon before this.)

2022 - vs 8,
"and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified." [Rev 11:8 ESV]
Pretty unequivocal now that this is Jerusalem, since there is no doubt at all that Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.  This verse means the witnesses bodies lay in Jerusalem, that Jerusalem is symbolically called both Sodom and Egypt (wow.  That is quite interesting.  If we are told this, then perhaps we will later need it to unlock some passages.  Note that it is not symbolically called Babylon.)  One other possibility here...they might have testified before some false Temple constructed by Antichrist elsewhere, but be brought to Jerusalem for display and for Abaddon to brag about his victory over them in the same place Christ died.  Sort of saying "Abaddon killed Jesus in Jerusalem, and now his witnesses are dead also!"  This would have to be true if that Temple is elsewhere...as I want it to be, but which claim is becoming less and less tenable.
2023 - If Jerusalem is Egypt and Sodom, then it is not Babylon.  So we know pretty certainly I think that Babylon is a completely different place.

Then they rise from the dead and are called to heaven.  
2023 - They go up in a cloud, like Jesus when he left.  But note that they do not raise themselves, the breath of God raises them.  But they ascend as did Jesus, when he came as the light, with the message that would save!  It is also like they get their own rapture sort of.
2024 -This is the end of their 1260 days.  This is therefore the end of the second 3 1/2 years.  So the style of narration has changed along with the POV.  John lays out the whole "event" of the 1260 days of prophesy by the two witnesses.  He doesn't tell of their arrival, then tell of all the other things that happen, and then way in the back of Revelation tells us that they are killed and taken up to heaven.  Their story is told in its entirety right here in a single chapter.  We have to "overlay" their ministry on the entire 1260 days.
2024 - AND, we know that this earthquake occurs at the end of that 1260 days.  This earthquake is at the end of the 70th week, NOT at the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years.  And note that EVERYONE NOT KILLED in that earthquake gives glory to the God of heaven.  That is all of Jerusalem right there, giving glory to God!
2024 - So ends the second woe.  Have we jumped back, or does the second woe not end until the 1260 is over? I think we must read this as coming back to chronology, after seeing the events of the witnesses testimony.  I think we are going BACK to the last verse of Chapter 9.  The time of the four angels of the Euphrates killing a third of mankind is ended at 9:21, with no one on earth repenting.  End of second woe - sixth trumpet.

2022 - This verse:
"But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them." [Rev 11:11 ESV]
Sounds a bit like this:
"Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live." [Eze 37:5 ESV]
"And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD."" [Eze 37:6 ESV]
But in that passage, when the breath goes in, it is from the four winds, and there is an exceedingly great army...not just two men.  The similarity, however, is unmistakable.  Hmm...the witnesses prophesy for 42 months.  We are very nearly at the end of Great Tribulation.  A battle is coming.  Perhaps the symbolism here is that God will raise the dead of Israel and restore the military might of his people, in time for the coming battle.  There just really seems to be some connection here to Ezekiel's prophecy.

An earthquake when they go destroys a tenth of the city and 7000 die.  The rest fear and give glory to God in heaven.
This is the first time we've seen this glory toward God. Per MSB, this will be Jews truly repenting.  This is a key fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecy (12:10, 13:1) and Paul's (Ro 11:25-27).
End of sixth trumpet, second woe.
2023 - Finally!!!  Thought the 6th would never end!!!

2022 - This verse:
"The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come." [Rev 11:14 ESV]
So.  The second woe was the sixth trumpet.  The sixth trumpet has taken us to the end of the witnesses who prophesy for 42 months.  The second woe ends almost on top of the end of Great Tribulation.  So the Seventh Trumpet is coming at the end of the dominion of Satan on the earth, and at the opening of Jesus' earthly dominion.  What a good place to put the revealing of the mystery of God...
2023 - Yes, this deserves some emphasis.  If we are trying to put a clock on all this, the sixth does not end until the witness had done their 1260 days, have lain dead for 3.5 days, then arisen and gone to heaven.  We are indeed at the end of the end.
2024 - NO.  See above about the change of narration.  The two witnesses have only just arrived at the end of Chapter 9.  We are moving back from the narration of the ministry of the two witnesses from its beginning to end, and coming back to the narration of events.  And what happens next in that narration is that the Seventh Trumpet sounds.

Seventh trumpet sounds, Christ's eternal kingdom proclaimed.  
(Just as foretold by that angel back in 10:7.  The mystery is that the conquering King is a second appearance of Christ on earth, this time in his glorified body, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  THIS is where that part occurs.  THIS explains Jesus saying "My kingdom is not of this world" for 2000+ years, but at the seventh trumpet, his Kingdom in this world will at last be established.)

2022 - Vs 18 has to be picked apart, so much is there:
"The nations raged, but your wrath came,    This is about the sixth seal.  Wrath came in Rev 6:17.
and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great,   This is the rapture, the bema judgment, the rewards in heaven.
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."" [Rev 11:18 ESV]  This last phrase seems to point to the overpowering of Satan and his forces in the last battle, and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom.  All here, in this one verse.  Here is the mystery, here is the bema, here is the victory.

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 11:19 NKJV
Since that beast back in vs 7 is, according to MSB, the antichrist, and since 3 1/2 years have now elapsed, we must surely be getting to the end of the great tribulation.  The tide is now going to turn forever against Satan, Antichrist, and all the unbelievers left on the earth.  This turning of the tide begins here, in vs 15, with the proclamation of Christ as ruler of all by loud voices from heaven.  The twenty four elders fall and worship.  If they represent the church, then this would include, I think at least, all the glorified saints taken out at the rapture.  

2023 - SUMMARY.  The Seventh sounds.  The LAST trump.  I believe these verses say that AT THIS POINT, Kingship over the earth is handed over to Jesus.  The scroll with seals began these events, and now he assumes his place as King on earth.  Vss 17, 18 are a recapitulation of all that has happened during this 70th week.  This is a praise, a song, and not a chronology.  We see the lightning and thunder again, signs associated with decrees coming directly from Theos.

We are near the end of Great Tribulation, but only halfway through Revelation. (NO.  Found a better...see above.)

2021 - Having a bit of a hard time fitting this in like this.  MacArthur's version above makes the sixth trumpet start at just about the middle of Trib/Great Trib, and these witnesses show up pretty much concurrent with that trumpet.  And this Temple needs to be measured, using a prepared measuring rod.  When did the temple get built?  The Gentiles will have use of the Temple Court for 3 1/2 years.  The part where Gentiles trample the Temple court for 3 1/2 years comes in the same paragraph as the two witnesses prophesying for 3 1/2 years.  So...what if the world ruler built the temple for the exclusive use of the Jews during the first part of the 70th week, but in the middle, opens it up - at least partially - to the Gentiles, and the response to this is the two witnesses proclaiming the truth of what is happening?  You really  have to do something here, because vs 14 says the second woe is over and the third is coming soon.  Those are equivalent to trumpets 6 and 7.  And that second woe is "over" when the two witnesses, who were killed by the beast, stand back up and get called to heaven.  Then you have vs 15 - the one after 14, which said the second woe was finally over - saying this:
15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." [Rev 11:15 ESV]
If we don't take MacArthur's sequence, then how is it that Jesus assumes his kingdom after the second woe, if there is still 3 1/2 more years until he comes?  Because that's what you have to say.  

On the other hand, rather a lot does seem to be happening during the sixth trumpet.  It sounded in Chapter 9, and here we are in 11, before the seventh sounds.  It would take a long while to kill 1/3 of mankind from horseback.  We can make an argument that the 5th trumpet's creatures are loosed to do their damage for five months, but so far we have not been told that the 200 million have stopped what they're doing.  Let's make some observations - without trying to figure out the chronology:
1. Beginning with the first seal and going through the 6th trumpet,  everything seems to fit easily into chronological order.  
2. Fifth trumpet starts like this:  1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. [Rev 9:1 ESV], and then we have this:
3. 14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come. 15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." [Rev 11:14-15 ESV]  So is it more plausible that everything from 9:1 to 11:15 happens during the sixth trumpet, or to think that inside these brackets is an "aside", a "flashback", a "focus on what has been happening in Jerusalem", or maybe it's a "summary of what has gone on since the 70th week began"?
4. John is commanded to "Rise and measure", which seems like a present imperative.
5. The "nations" will trample the holy city for forty-two months.  This looks like future tense.
6. The two witnesses "will prophesy" for 1260 days (42 lunar months) or 3.5 years.  This also seems like future tense.  MSB does not discuss the tense in any of these.  It could be that the Temple was to be measured right away, and these other two events "begin" after the 6th and before the 7th, but are not entirely contained within them.  And yet...the whole epiphany of the two witnesses seems to be discussed here.  Is it anywhere else?
7. This verse:  7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,  [Rev 11:7 ESV]  Seems to be future tense.  ALSO, who is this beast?  Is he the one that MSB says we'll hear about 36 total times in Revelation?  Or is this a different one, a very powerful one indeed, but not the beast we hear about in Chapter 13?  
8. 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. [Rev 11:11 ESV]  This seems to be past tense, as if this is already over before the 7th trumpet sounds!  It could be construed to bring the whole story of the two witnesses into the time frame of the 6th trumpet.  It stays in past tense until this verse, which closes the 6th trumpet:  14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come. [Rev 11:14 ESV]  This puts the 6th trumpet clearly in the rear view mirror.  So if we go strictly by the verb tenses - and why wouldn't we since they are so clear - at the time John is told to measure the temple all the two witness events have yet to begin.  But they are going to begin.  Between vss 10 and 11, time catches up with the narrative and instead of looking forward to what they will do, John is looking back at what they did.  We look forward to their ministry, and we look back at their supernatural resurrection and ascension.  The Law looked forward to what Jesus would do, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ looks back at his death and resurrection.  Just as we see here.  A type comes before.  What is it called when it comes after?  
9. This verse:  15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." [Rev 11:15 ESV].  If we place this anywhere but very near the end of the 70th week, then we have Jesus presiding over an earth filled with unregenerate, ungrateful, angry, spiteful people for some period of time until he ultimately wipes out all the bad guys and sits on the throne.  I guess this is a possibility.  He would also be presiding over the "recovery" of the blood descendants of Abraham as they finally recognize their Messiah and return to him in numbers.  Perhaps from here on Jesus will supernaturally protect all who believe in him, who are predestined to believe in him.  Maybe it is in that sense that the world becomes his kingdom.

So.  In any case, I am pretty much forced at this point to make a huge overhaul of my "time sense" of the 70th week.  It could be that the seals and the first 5 trumpets go quite quickly, and the 7th trump takes up half the week, and then the rest of Revelations goes pretty fast.  We don't really have any bookends in time for that 1260 day long (at least) 6th trumpet.  But it surely looks here like it goes pretty long.

Perhaps Satan himself rises up at this point, seeing that Jesus is assuming full control of what previously was the realm of the Prince of the Power of the Air, and that explains why Chapter 12 begins as it does.  There may not be much time left in the 70th week, but at this point, with his kingdom given to another, he will likely be quite desperate.  

2022 - Last verse of 11:
"Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail." [Rev 11:19 ESV]
These seem to be signs of the change of dominion, from Satan to Jesus.  Compare this verse to 8:5, which came just before the trumpets:
"Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake." [Rev 8:5 ESV]
These are all the same.  Perhaps, once again, the scene is being set for the next visions/prophecies.  First, we see that we are looking into heaven - into the spiritual realm.  The signs tell us we are back at the seventh seal, just before the first trumpet, and we are going to see yet another superposition of events, just as we went backwards to lay out the time of the anointed ones superimposed on the last 42 months.  This is yet another layer on top of the underlying events of the last 42 months.  It surely does seem to connect.  But does it connect just like that?  Looking ahead a little, I see Chapter 13 right around the corner, and I believe the events of 13 must precede, or at least connect directly with the events inside the sixth seal.  So with 13 still two chapters away, we ought to be connecting to somewhere before the sixth seal shouldn't we?  
Or....Perhaps we are now going to look at the spiritual realm as things played out there during the trumpet judgments.  There is no real reason to impose a condition that the events in heaven would connect chronologically on man's terms with events in heaven.  I really hope that's not what seems most likely as I continue.  I think it ought to be pretty seamless, and require not stretching of perceptions to all work out.  
Hmmm...God's temple in heaven takes us all the way back to chapter 4!  To before the Tribulation, much less wrath.  The signs tell us that significant events are about to be revealed.  They tell us that something is beginning.  But they are not necessarily telling us that we are going back to the last time we saw these signs.  If it was that, the signs would come first.  What we see first in 11:19 is the scene in heaven, just as we saw it in 4:1.  That is where we are going!

2024 - The Seventh Trump does not signal the third woe.  It is not about woe at all.  It is about the turning point, or perhaps better the joining of battle, between the Satan empowered MoL and the returning Christ.  For the next 3 1/2 years, as the witnesses prophesy and God protects the woman, monstrous things will occur on earth.  Satan's evil will know no bounds as he tries to destroy ALL of Israel.   That is now his only strategy to stop the fulfilment of all prophecy and keep himself out of hell.  The church will be long gone.  I think very few Gentiles will be saved during this time, but some will, and receive their rewards at the pre-Millennial judgment.  A few.  

Chapter 12 begins the visions.  The icons.  The foundational truths of what the world has been, is, and will be about.

12
At the end of 11, the Kingdom of Christ was proclaimed.  So Jesus is now taking over, and the days of the old heaven and old earth are about to pass away.  Jesus is no longer waiting, but is about to actively and visibly assume Kingship over all that is.  This will, of course, enrage the Antichrist.
2022 - I believe that Rev 11:19 has notified us that the scene is shifting back to heaven, as was the scene in 1:10,11 when John saw the Son and the seven lampstands and Christ dictated from heaven his letters to the seven churches, as in 4 when we beheld the throne of God in heaven and saw the scroll handed to the Lamb.  The lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, earthquake and heavy hail link us to 8:5 and announce that something momentous is about to occur.  Today, I believe we are going to add another layer to our understanding of end time events.  
I believe Rev 11 gave us a standalone timeline of the 42 month ministry of the two witnesses, introduced to us by 10:11 saying there was more to come, and then the measuring of the Temple, on earth.  So in 1:10,11 we saw Jesus standing in heaven among the seven lampstands, in 4 we saw God's throne in heaven, and in 11 we saw the temple on earth.  Now, in 12, we will see what the "heralding signs" in 11:19 are announcing.

2023 - As a refresher, these signs in heaven, the lightning, rumblings, thunder, and heavy hail, show up four times in Revelation.  Four, not seven.  We see them in 4:5;, 8:5; 11:19; and 16:18.  These all seem to originate from heaven  There is some variation to each one.  The one in 11 included heavy hail for the first time.  They originate in heaven but four is the number of man.  Shall we - is it proper to - connect these four events in heaven to four phases of God's wrath against man?  
In Chapter 4, John is caught up into heaven, and we get lightning rumblings and thunder.
In Chapter 8, the 7th seal is opened, and we get lightning, thungder, rumblings, and an earthquake.
In Chapter 11, the 7th trumpet sounds, and we get lightning, rumblings, thunder, and earthquake, and heavy hail.
In Chapter 16, we will see the 7th bowl emptied, the announcement that "It is done", and we get lightning, rumblings, thunder and the greatest earthquake of all time.
I never connected these before, but just look at this.  The "signs" show up at the beginning, and then at the three endings.  Given that in that last one it is a very great quake, I think we can conclude that these signs are seen, heard, and felt on the earth.  The heavy hail would also indicated that these things are from the POV of  earth.  Imagine...it will become very clear on earth that when these signs are observed, something ELSE, something more severe, is just about to come down from heaven.  Imagine the fear - or the anger and hatred - or all of these, each time these signs aare seen.  

Sign (vision really) of the woman giving birth and the dragon waiting to devour the child.  
2022 - It says this sign was in heaven, not on earth.  The woman is clearly Israel, and she is crying out in pain as she gave birth.  This is pure vision, pure symbolism.  The sign is in heaven, so this is a spiritual occurrence.  The baby she carries is a descendant of the nation of Israel, and a product of all twelve tribes.  The mother is in the vision, but the Father is not.  This child will be alone.  Perhaps we are seeing how miraculous it is that this child, the Son of God, who was in heaven, is now being made flesh - part of the realm of the sun and moon.  Agony it says, not just pain.  
2022 - A second vision, separate from the first.  The "Great Red Dragon".  I capitalize it because there is only one such.  We will be told precisely that this dragon is Satan.  As a vision, he has seven heads, ten horns, seven diadems.  Hmm...Only seven crowns, one for each head, but ten horns.  The seven heads are the seven dominions.  They correspond to the seven lampstands.  The spiritual realm is divided into seven, and both Christ and Satan battle over these seven.  As there is one angel under Christ for each dominion, there is also one demonic "ruler" of each dominion - the seven diadems.  The horns represent the corresponding kingdoms of earth.  Six of the demonic angels each rule over one "kingdom" on earth.  The seventh demon rules over three earthly kingdoms.  The seventh demonic overlord wears the diadem, but rules over three earthly kingdoms, making 10 kingdoms on earth.  We will see this again later.  Further, we will also see this dragon again in the next chapter.   I do not know, yet, why the nations of earth are divided differently by Satan than by Christ.  Perhaps he sees some strategic advantage in that.  We know that from this situation he will raise Antichrist to power.
2022 - So what do these two signs foretell?  Jesus, as God made flesh, is about to engage in battle with Satan for dominion over the earth.  Satan took earth as a sort of consolation prize when his rebellion was turned back in heaven.  Earth is all he really has.  To this point, Christ has battled with Satan in the spiritual realm, in the seven spiritual dominions, but has not directly battled on earth for earth.  This is about to change.  This is the "bigger picture" of t/gt.  Christ, holder of the scroll and recipient of the authority given him by the Father over the earth, now begins to exert his power, his kingship, over that earth.  Satan will resist vigorously.  So the layer that is being added here, to what we have already seen, is that there is a battle raging, fiercely raging.  Wouldn't Satan prefer to stop the locusts and the four angels from the Euphrates from their destruction?  Wouldn't his worshipers appeal to him to stop the killing?  Wouldn't he tell them that it is this Jesus that is the causer of their suffering, and that their only hope is in continued loyalty to him...especially if they want to eat?  His lie will be that taking the mark saves them, when in fact the mark condemns them forever.  He manipulates them to take that mark using starvation as a weapon.

She represents Israel because her crown has 12 stars.  (2022 - We have seen that stars are beings, not actual stars.  What is the role of these 12 stars, one for each tribe of Israel?  Perhaps lesser angels, below those in charge of the dominions, each a protector of one tribe.  We previously saw seven stars as the seven angels of the the seven churches?  In 6:12 we saw many stars fall to earth.  In 8:10 a great star falls to earth and poisons the water.  9:1 is particularly interesting, because there one of the fallen stars receives the key to the bottomless pit, and he uses that key.  Stars are clearly angels in Revelation.)

This nation of Israel is about to be redeemed - by Jesus as King, as prophesied in the OT.  Their blinders are coming off, their ears are being opened.  

2023 - Or...maybe this vision is giving us some idea of the spiritual battle that has been raging.  I think the key is that this vision is in heaven.  I think also that we ought not see details of events in this vision, but see it as an overall.  The woman is Israel.  The dragon is Satan.  That is very clear.  She is giving birth, he waits to destroy the baby - no...more horrible than that, he waits to devour the child, to eat the child.  The child is Christ, the heir and the new King of the holy people.  The dragon wants him dead.  This tells us that Satan mightily resisted God's redemptive plan FOR ISRAEL.  Since we are after the rapture, I don't think this is really about the church.  
2023 - His tail sweeps down a third of the stars of heaven.  Here is something that I think we need to see as vision, not chronology.  When Satan fell, he had help.  So this says that 1/3 of the angels of heaven sided with Satan, and they are now down on earth in his service.  They have been here since he was thrown down.  They have been here since before there was Israel, since before there was man.  So we see that the dragon rules over 7 dominions of spirit, 10 horns of earthly kingdoms, distributed to 7 demonic assistants.  The next layer of this hierarchy includes 1/3 of the angels that God created.  So Satan has a LOT of help here on earth.  All of them are using the power that they have as angels to destroy this child that the woman bears.  This human.  This man.  And look at what happens - the child IS born despite the opposition, but before he begins to rule on earth, he is caught up to God and his throne.  This is the ascension after the resurrection.  It was not time for Jesus to rule ON the earth, because the church age was in progress.  While Jesus is in heaven, the woman (Israel) flees into the wilderness.  Israel is persecuted on earth as no other people ever have been.  And then the last part of vs 6 brings us back to revelation.  The indication of that is the very specific duration of the time God will nourish the woman.  1260 days, 3 1/2 years.  And we know that this must be the second half of the 70th.  So again we have this "marker", this "changing of the guard" that occurs right in the middle of the week.  I am thinking more and more that we are talking about the rapture, after all.  And if so, then the seals ARE a part of the 70th week, and it looks more and more like they are the first half of the week.  So this vision gives us an understanding of events on earth from just before the birth of Christ, right up to the last half of the 70th week.

2022 - This verse:
"His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it." [Rev 12:4 ESV]
Again, stars are not lights in the sky undergoing nuclear reactions.  Stars are beings - angels - in this case those following Satan.  So what we have - and what I think we will see in more detail later - is that once Christ receives authority from the Father, Christ throws Satan and all his followers - a third of the angels - out of heaven and down to earth.  This is about the scariest thing so far.  There are going to be a lot of very powerful spiritual beings on the earth, all loyal to a master who is seething with fury over his exile from heaven.  The anger will be vented on men, and the angels will be trying their best "perform" as their master expects.  When is this?  Sometime after Christ receives his dominion over the earth.  Ahh...and just before the rapture!  Because we know that there is a great deal of trouble bringing the raptured saints up from the world.  IT is a battle because all those "stars" are now trying to prevent Christ from retrieving a large part of his "army".
The last part of the verse gives us insight into Satan's state of mind at this point.  He will eat babies to prevent Christ from taking over the earth, which Satan considers to be HIS earth.  This spiritual war for dominion over the earth will have no holds barred.
There is also another possibility.  "His tail swept down a third of the stars..."  Doesn't say Satan was kicked out, but it says he chose to stand before the woman to devour her child.  Perhaps this is why demons were so prevalent in the NT?  Satan brought them down here to help him overcome the child that would be born?  That is why they always recognized Jesus.  They were down here to oppose him, and each time his power overwhelmed them.  They recognized his authority?  So perhaps we see in the first 6 verses of Rev 12 that the battle for earth has it roots in the 12 tribes, that Satan so corrupted, and who had to be scattered - perhaps so some could be preserved.  He couldn't perhaps track them all.  Concurrent with that, Christ appears and atones for all sin, opening the door to heaven through the torn veil?  If we take this explanation, then 12:1-6 is about the New Testament.  If we take the first view, then 12:1-6 is about t/gt.
2022 - Next verse:
"She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne," [Rev 12:5 ESV]
We are still symbolic here.  We are reminded that what is happening now was initiated when Christ came into the world, did as he was bidden by God, even to the death on the cross, and then was brought back to heaven in his glorified body.  Satan could not destroy him before he was born.  Satan could not prevent him from accomplishing his work.  Satan could not retain him in the earth as dead flesh.  What throne?  We have not seen Christ sitting on a throne so far in Revelation.  He has always been standing.  Perhaps this throne is the throne over the earth, the Millennial throne, the throne of Christ on earth when he becomes King of King and Lord of Lords.  The iron rule is rule in the Millennial over all the nations - particularly the Gentile nations who will resent the privilege and rank of the Jews in Israel during this time.
2022 - Next verse:
"and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days." [Rev 12:6 ESV]
Hmm...After the resurrection, 70 AD comes.  Israel is surely scattered, but it says she fled.  This points to the correct interpretation being that 12:1-6 is about t/gt.  The final battle lines are drawn and the battle is joined.  The vision informs us of how things got here, and at the same time of what is happening "now", in t/gt.  When Satan fails to devour the child - and the child returns to heaven where Satan cannot touch him, Satan decided instead to devour the woman.  To annihilate the 12 tribes.  He has tried this long term - perhaps Hitler was a really big try - and in t/gt he will try to do so again, having all his demonic forces on earth for the first time ever.  But God is going to supernaturally protect the Jews from all this muscle directed against them.  He has prepared a place for them.  A place of safety.  We don't know what means He used to conceal this place or to guard it so that it cannot be invaded.  But we know that the Jews will come through t/gt somehow.

2023 Summary -
I like the 2023 paragraphs above this section from 2022 as a better understanding of what is going on.  These 2022 thoughts are trying to hard to make the vision literal and chronological.  It is a vision of the state of all things and of how it came to be that way.  I don't think we can say when those angels were thrown down. We can see a number of possibilities...but I don't think we can know because it is vision.  John sees this all at once, all together.  The woman is in labor as the dragon waits.  A boy is born but is snatched up to heaven.  The woman goes into hiding.  Think of how much time is included in these three "movements" of Revelation 12:1-6!
2023 - Oh my!  Never have I seen this before!  Look at this verse:
5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, [Rev 12:5 ESV].  Look at that phrase at the end, saying he was "caught up" to God and his throne.  Now look also at this verse:
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. [1Th 4:17 ESV].
In both these verses, the Greek word is the same, a form of harpazo.  1Th we know as the rapture.  But I never saw that Jesus - the firstborn from the dead - was also the first raptured from the earth by God.  In this too we will be LIKE him!  As he went, we also will be go!


MSB says this is the first of 7 signs in the last half of Revelation.  Signs are symbols pointing to something else.  We are told this part of Revelation is symbolic of events, not the events themselves.
Continuing from MSB, This woman is a symbolic representation of Israel.  Two other women are the scarlet woman in 17:3-6, representing the apostate church, and the other is the wife of the Lamb, 19:7, symbolizing the true church.
The great red dragon is Satan himself.  He is represented as a dragon 13 times in Revelation.  The dragon has 7 heads, 10 horns, seven diadems.  MSB says they represent 7 past worldly kingdoms and 10 future kingdoms (Dan 7:7,20,24).  Satan has and will rule the world until the seventh trumpet blows. (2021 - Where did this note come from?  Didn't Jesus just take over at the end of 11?  Satan is already not in charge anymore.)
2021 - We know that this is a "sign" and not an actual part of the chronology because it clearly says so.  The sign is in heaven, and so that's a second reason to read this as symbolic of events.  That's why we can see Israel born as a nation, and pursued by Satan.  The red dragon also appears in heaven in this vision.  Yet we know that Satan's attacks on Israel are on the earth.  Still further indication that what we are seeing is a representation, not a literal event.  This verse:
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. [Rev 12:3 ESV]   Not sure I agree with MSB interpretation of the heads and horns.  There are very many 7's in Revelation.  I don't think that's just a random number.  Especially I think it is significant that the Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes.  This dragon has 7 horns.  I am leaning more and more to believing that the earth is divided into seven domains, with a heavenly prince over each, and each heavenly prince is opposed by a "prince" from Satan.  Daniel mentions the Prince of Persia, so Persia is one of these domains.  There is also another mentioned, also in Daniel I think....Here are several that I found:
2 "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god-- [Eze 28:2 ESV]
2 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him 3 and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. [Eze 38:2-3 ESV]
1 "And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. [Eze 39:1 ESV]
11 It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown. [Dan 8:11 ESV]
13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, ... 20 Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come. [Dan 10:13, 20 ESV]
I think a number of these refer to specific earthly princes, like those that speak of a city.  Like the prince of Tyre.  I think that was primarily a man, though it is possible that Satan's hierarchy includes lesser demons in charge of cities.  The battle truly is spiritual, and I am sure both sides would be represented throughout the whole hierarchy.  Gog, Persia, and Greece of those named above seem most likely to be 3 of the 7 to me.
I also noted that four times in the New Testament the phrase "prince of demons" is used of Satan.
So if this is the way to see this, then the dragon has put 10 demons in charge of 7 domains.  Perhaps in an effort to overpower the princes of heaven on the other side, or perhaps those angels of God are just too strong in some cases for a single demon.  I can't help but think Michael has more than one adversary set against him.

In 12:4, the third of the stars are those ejected from heaven during Satan's rebellion.  MSB says this refers back to Satan's original rebellion.  But it doesn't say whether that was before time began - as I believe it was.  MSB says the third of angels that joined Satan became demons.  Those words.  So that is where he thinks demons come from.  These demons were cast down to earth.  No mention of a pit where they are confined.  More like they walk around and possess people and make them throw themselves into fires and such.  But it still seems to me that there are not nearly so many now as in Jesus' time, or they are operating in a completely different way.  It would make sense that the extent of what they can do - now that they are opposed by Christ - might be much less, plus we do know that a LOT of demons are confined in the pit, because we are told they get loose during the 5th and 6th trumpets.  

Satan does all he can to prevent Jesus' birth, up to having a mass murder of male children carried out by Herod.  But he fails.  It is clear that the child she has is Jesus, which is still further confirmation that this is a depiction of history, and not a current event.  

2021 - This verse though:
6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. [Rev 12:6 ESV]  this would seem like a real event.  This verse is a transition from a representation of history to the present time to the time of Tribulation and Great Tribulation.  It seems more than coincidence that 1260 days is mentioned for the third time.  First, the nations trample the holy city 42 months, then the witnesses are witnessing for 1260 days, and now Israel is in hiding for 1260 days.  The obvious way to read this is that all three refer to the same period of time precisely.  If we read it this way, then what we are saying is that during the time of the sixth trumpet, when 1/3 of the earth's population is being killed off by the army led by the four demonic commanders, God keeps Israel hidden and protected in the wilderness.  And if we see this 1260 day period as beginning somewhere near halfway through the 70th week, and wholly within the Great Tribulation, then when this is over, Israel will have survived very nearly to the end of the 70th week.  



2022 - Now we see a transition.  The sign is over, the symbolism is over.  We go from what this looked like as "icon", and instead look at the practical details of what it symbolized.  So again, this points to the correct translation of vss 1-6 being confined to t/gt, and not all of history.  In fact, I would say it looks back to the passing of the scroll to the Lamb.

12:7 may refer to the battle during the rapture when the saved have to transit the sky - where Satan is prince of the power of the air - in order to bring those saints safely home.  Satan was thrown from heaven but has continued to have access to it, with his angels, in order to accuse us before the throne, where Jesus now intercedes for us.  But in 12:9, they are all thrown out for good, no longer to accuse the saints.
2022 - Here is vs 7:
"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back," [Rev 12:7 ESV]
"The dragon and his angels fought back".  They didn't start it.  Michael started it!  When Christ is given all authority and the deed to the earth, Michael begins clearing the trash out of heaven!  The trash does not go peaceably, the trash does not accept this change in authority, but fights back to prevent it.  Interesting...perhaps Satan  thought to wrest the scroll - the deed to the earth, the authority over the earth - from the very hand of the Lamb.  If so, he chose his ground poorly.  All of God's loyal angels, all those under the authority of Michael the archangel, were stationed there.  Satan is defeated and he and his angels are thrown to earth.  When?  I would say BEFORE the first seal is opened.  He is on earth, with his angels as the seal judgments begin.  He is on earth, with his angels, persecuting the Jews primarily, but also the church.  He knows that the church will comprise a large part of Christ's future army.  He and his angels are on earth, and they control the air, and they fight, when the rapture comes, to prevent the saints from ascending to heaven.  

2023 - The paragraph above has some problems...the paragraph below is on the right track, but, as I see it now, when Christ is given the kingdom on earth in 11:15, Michael FINALLY gets the nod to clear heaven of Satan and all his forces.  Jesus "commands" his soldier Michael to go to work.  Look at this verse:
1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. [Dan 12:1 ESV]. So doesn't this make it look like Michael, who has been protecting Israel on earth, not begins to battle in the spiritual realm against the dragon and his forces - even in heaven?  There is a verse - I cannot find it today - that talks about how the antichrist is restrained.  There are also verses that indicate that Michael is restrained.  I surely do need to bring those verses to right here.  I think ALL those finally fit together.  

2021 - It seems that 12:6 transitioned us from the vision to future real events, and 12:7 takes up the chronology from 11:15, where the 7th trumpet sounded.  So, if we see it this way, then after Christ is proclaimed Lord of the kingdom of the world, Satan declares all out blatant war.  He is no longer trying to deceive and undermine and derail God's plans, he sees that he has been deposed.  He is a "king without a kingdom" now, and he declares war to get it back.  It says clearly that this war was in heaven, and fought by the dragon and his angels.  His angels are demons and they are in heaven fighting Michael and those angels with him.  So possibly these demons were summoned to heaven by the dragon as an assault on the forces in heaven, and upon losing this war, they are ALL thrown out of heaven once and for all.  Since Jesus was just declared Lord of All, there is nothing left in heaven for Satan.  There is no longer a contest between good and evil, good has won, and the dragon knows his fate, and in desperation throws deceit and malice and scheming to the wind and attacks directly.  The demons are thrown permanently to earth, as is the dragon.  I think these summary verses confirm this:
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. [Rev 12:9-10 ESV]  Satan is exiled to earth, and he is furious, angry, raging.  So what will he do first?
2022 - In vs 10, victory is declared.  Satan and his followers are no longer in heaven to accuse believers.  He is gone from there.  And what is the result of this victory?  Read verse 10!  Salvation, power, and the kingdom, and the authority of Christ are now in place!  It is here that Christ receives his earthly kingdom.  This happens in heaven.  
2022 - What does this one mean?
"And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death." [Rev 12:11 ESV]
This seems clearly to be about martyrs.  "they" are the brothers accused by Satan.  The blood of the Lamb refers to those who were saved.  You cannot conquer Satan without the blood.  And they did not fail, nor turn back, but maintained and testified, even if it meant their death.  So...maybe not martyrs, but those willing to die rather than deny.  Perhaps this is the same thing as Matthew wrote about here:
"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." [Mat 10:32 KJV]
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." [Mat 10:33 KJV]
To live for Christ, even in the face of death, ultimately results in Stan's defeat.  Salvation and profession.

2021 - 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!" [Rev 12:12 ESV]  This is the answer to why the events following the 7th trumpet proceed so very fast.  Not only is Satan on earth all the time, and furious, but his "best" angels are with him.  All his forces are now confined to earth.  His thinking must be that if he cannot win it in heaven, then by sheer force, power, and brutality, he will win it on earth.  The only way he can win is genocidal elimination of the blood descendants of Abraham.  And that is what we see next.
2022 - He is thrown down to earth, and then the first seal is opened.  2023 - NO!  1st seal was long ago.  The visions give us the overall understanding of what is about to happen, what is happening.  We saw vision, and now we see the actual events that took place in heaven to set things up.  I believe that here, in 12:7-17, we see the opposing forces placed, the motivations and goals outlined, and THEN, it begins.
2022 - About 10 minutes later...if we interpret the time of his fall as here, and he pursues the woman for 3 1/2 years, then our timeline gets out of whack.  It must be that he is thrown down about the sixth seal, immediately BEFORE the rapture so that he can try to prevent it, and then he turns - during Great Tribulation - to the annihilation of Israel.  It is the action of the Dragon, on the earth, in his fury, that classifies these last 3.5 years as "Great Tribulation"

2023 - NO!  He is thrown down after that 7th trumpet.  I think the rapture - the midpoint - was in the 6th seal.  So some of the final 3.5 has already past also when this all happens.  Satan remained in heaven for the trumpet judgments - until the 7th trumpet blew.  Remember that the 6th encompasses a LOT of events.  So I think, in 2023, that where we are is the spiritual battle between Michael and Satan, with Christ as King, preliminary to the physical battle in which Jesus defeats Satan and his earthly forces at Armageddon.  This whole "strategic plan" is now in motion.  And I think vs 12:12 says his time is short, because he has far less than 1260 days left.  That is also why the bowls go so fast.  They are the end.
2023 - Well...Vss 13, 14 make it look very clear that Satan is thrown down AT the HALF mark, and that is how the woman has to be nourished for 1260 days.  But how to make this fit???  The rapture is at 1260 days in, 1260 days left.  The Jews go into hiding at this point - somehow they know?  While they are in hiding, the trumpets all blow, and at the end of those, Michael throws Satan out of heaven, and Satan himself begins to try and wipe out Israel.  Previously, it was the MoL pursuing them, after he breaks his deal with them.  Does that fly?  It still means that Satan had a lot less than 1260 days to kill Israel, even though they have needed protection since the rapture.  Kind of works I think...

(The paragraphs from here to the beginning of 13 are the notes from 2019 and 2020.  I still mostly agree with them, and with the discussion.  So there are no new 2021 notes here.  I will summarize these paragraphs in the end times chronology elsewhere.)

The dragon goes after the woman and her offspring in his rage, but she hides for 3 1/2 years.  We need to fix this in time.  We know that during Chapter 11, the sixth trumpet, the two witnesses were active for 1260 days.  We know that it is the beast who kills these two witnesses.  We know they are not around during the opening of the seals at all.  So if this attack on Israel lasts 1260 days also, we have to either overlap this extreme persecution of Israel with the time of the two witnesses, or we have to make the seven seals and the 6 trumpets occur in very rapid succession.  BTN says that when Rev 10:7 refers to the "days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel",  it means that the events will encompass an extended period of time.  BTN says it encompasses all 7 bowl judgements. BTN says the preaching of the two witnesses will stretch from the midpoint of the tribulation until just before the sounding of the seventh trumpet.  So we either have to cram events together during the seal judgements or we have to jam the 7th trumpet and the bowls together.  Since The Kingdom of Christ has been declared, I lean toward Jesus dispensing justice quickly.  I also don't feel compelled to make the 1260 day periods start at exactly the midpoint or exactly at the beginning.  

The conclusion is that in some way, the time of the extreme persecution of the Jews spoken of here - where they are all hiding in the desert - must start during the time of the two witnesses.

BTN says that even though the seventh trumpet sounds in 11:15, the judgements associated with it do not start until chapter 15.  Therefore, chapters 12-14 are a digression, taking readers back through the tribulation to the point of the seventh trumpet by a different path.  These chapters describe the tribulation not from God's perspective, but from Satan's.  I had thought BTN insisted that Revelation was entirely chronological, with no returns to re-describe or elaborate on events in previous chapters.  BTN does not say this, and I am glad.  The argument above concluding that the witnesses and the persecution of the Jews overlap seems to have been correct.

The dragon is Satan, and we are told of his rebellion, and his being thrown out of heaven, though he still has access to heaven in order to accuse the saints.  This is how far back the vision starts.  Then we move to the next great event in God's history of the world, the birth of Christ.  The child that is born in the vision is Jesus.  That is why it says "the one who was to rule" was taken up to heaven.  This is the resurrection, so we have gone back in the narration to the birth of Christ and we're coming forward from there, and from a different perspective.  This reinforces BTN saying that the signs are symbolic of events not details of events, and so we have moved from Satan's ejection from heaven to the birth of Christ very quickly.  And next, we move all the way to the Tribulation, because the Jews flee into the desert to hide from the persecution of Antichrist.  Are the 144,000 the leaders of this flight to the desert?  

But now we move to war in heaven....we go backwards again to Satan's rebellion.  Or may be not.  Maybe vvs 3 and 4 are about Satan's recruitment of allies to back him in his revolt against God.  It says he cast those followers to the earth - as an army intent on the destruction of God's plan, and they have been on earth since that time, carrying out the plans of Satan.  That's why they were here, and for all that time, because Satan had no idea when Christ would be born.  When Christ was born, Satan realized his failure, and war started in heaven...at that time????  Reading on through vs 10, the only way this works is that Satan was thrown out of heaven when Christ arrived there resurrected and victorious over him.  But I'm pretty sure there are NT books that say Satan is there now, accusing us.  So when was this war?  

BTN says this battle has raged in heaven since Satan's rebellion in the distant pass.  There is always war in the heavenlies.  The Greek, per BTN, implies that this is a battle that Satan started.  This battle will reach a climax during the tribulation period.  BTN quotes Daniel 12:1, where Michael stands guard over the sons of your people.  There will be a time of distress such as never occurred, and those written in the book of life will be rescued.  So this ties an increase - possibly triggered by the rapture, when Satan and his angels try to prevent the saints from reaching heaven, perhaps by the absence of the church from the earth, such that there are no "helpers" for Israel, and no prayers being offered on earth to "tie up" the demon army, or in my opinion, that Jesus has been declared Conquering King, and knowing his time is almost up, Satan is desperate and initiates an all out win or die kind of escalation.  As part of this, Satan is at last thrown out of heaven for good, never to accuse those remaining on earth, and never again having access to God.  This is "hell" for Satan.  Banished forever from God's presence.  Vs 12 says that when this happens, Satan is going to be very angry, and will take out his anger on the remaining population of the planet.  

There is a flood from the mouth of Satan, described as water like a river, to sweep away the remnant.  But the earth soaks up the flood.  This could be a literal deluge/hurricane/Noahic level flood to drown the desert where the remnant is being safeguarded, or it could speak of other "natural disasters" sent by Satan, or it could mean an all out assault of the search and destroy variety carried out by his followers, but resulting in their failure because of the vastness and complexity of the natural terrain where they are hiding.  We have no idea.  This is a "sign", not a literal depiction.  Then this verse:
17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. [Rev 12:17 ESV]
Thwarted in heaven and thrown out forever, and then his fury is again thwarted by failure to wipe out the remnant, he turns to the Jews that he can find, who apparently didn't flee to the desert, and who are now fodder for his aggression.  

2022 - But....hmmm...
12:12 says woe to the earth.  True, but when exactly is Satan thrown down?  I think it must be before the sixth seal.  Maybe the signs in the heavens mean that Satan is no longer in heaven.  Maybe the battle in heaven rages for five seals, but on the sixth, Michael prevails and everything changes.  And THAT is why we get...
This verse:
"But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time." [Rev 12:14 ESV]
Satan pursues the woman, and she hides from him, for 3 1/2 years.  We made a pretty decent case earlier that the rapture is just almost precisely at the middle of t/gt.  So I think I am saying now that Satan is thrown out of heaven just in time to try and prevent the raptured from reaching heaven, and this failure just adds to his fury, which he then turns on the woman.  He pursues here for 3 1/2 years.  
2022 - Vss 15-17
At this time, I just have no idea what this is about.  The visions are over, so it is not symbolism.  It is a depiction of real events on earth that occur over the next 3 1/2 year.  (NOTE:  Since the whole 3 1/2 is covered, this OVERLAYS the time of the two witnesses exactly.  This is not sequential to that, it is concurrent with that.)  Perhaps I will find further amplification later on, and can come back and fill this in.

2023 - Yes.  Again this year, it all begins to fall apart when I get to vs 13.  I cannot make the chronology work from there.  I don't know what that water is.  Real water?  Does he in some way try to flood the desert and drown the woman in her underground hiding place?  When he goes off to attack the rest of her offspring, who is that exactly?  Who is it, of the Jews, that is not in hiding with the woman?  Where are the 144,000?  Are they the ones with the woman, as they have been sealed away so that no harm can come to them, and when Satan cannot get to them he goes after all the rest of the Jews still alive on earth?  That is an idea.  Not ALL Jews are with the woman, only the sealed.
2023 - Knowing when exactly the devil is thrown down - whether 1260 days to go or sometime later than that - is important here.  Right now, it is fixing that moment that is keeping me from keeping the chronology straight.  That, and these visions.  And knowing when the vision ends and the chronology restarts.  
2023 - For now, I am of the opinion that time passes after the rapture and before Satan is thrown down.  The trumpets occur during this time.  When Christ is given the kingdom on earth, Michael starts the battle to throw Satan down.  When Satan "lands" on earth, he pursues the 144,000 hiding in the desert.  He fails to get them, and so turns to the rest of Israel, knowing that his time is short.  I don't really see how to read this any other way.  This is what is happening.  How I am going to put Rev 13 into this mix I do not know.  But that is tomorrow.

​

2024 - I spent a lot of very productive time in Joel this morning.  I am going to severely limit my time on this chapter, and I'm not going to read my previous notes.  Just a summary of my current thinking.
I believe the two visions in vss 1-6 are in fact what we might call "icons".  There is more comment about that elsewhere.  BUT, the idea is that this is just a foundational picture of what is going on.  It is a memory aid.  
I think this heavenly battle is "real" and takes place within the timeline.  Remember that we are now inside the Seventh Trumpet.  The rapture has happened.  The two witnesses are in place bringing down fire from heaven.  Christ's reign on earth is declared, leaving Satan with nothing.  And so he goes to war.  We know that today, he stands accusing us before the throne.  He is "allowed" in heaven, and apparently so are his followers.  But that ends here in Chapter 12.  Many stars fall to earth here.  We saw that the witnesses would testify 1260 days, now in this chapter we see the woman nourished for a time, times, and half a time.  These periods overlap.  Satan will spend 3 1/2 years of genocidal aggression to rid the planet of Israel.  But God will divinely protect her, somewhere, in a place prepared.
For another time, she is give "THE two wings of THE great eagle".  Something very specific is in view here.  Double definite articles.  What does it mean when Greek does that?  There are two "great eagles in Ezekiel that might be connected here.  Not going there today though.
Perhaps the water is an abundance of words - rhetoric harsh and violent - blaming Israel for all the wrath.  Perhaps the two witnesses are able to counter it.  The "rest" implies that not all Israel will make it to the place prepared.  Satan will be merciless toward those that do not.  Is it the 144K who do make it there, and remain untouched, while the rest are subject to Satan's worst?

13
As part of my judgment study, found elsewhere, I took a very deep dive into Revelation 13 just a few weeks ago.  It was truly an eye opener that day, and many things came into focus, fell into place, many pieces fit together.  I think the interpretation of that day is the best of all my attempts.  It fits with what I have been saying about Rev. 12.  In fact, after deciphering 13 that day, my daily reading was on about chapter 4, so all my current interpretations of 4-12 were retroactively based on what I saw in 13.   There is a summary of where I am on all this in the notes on Rev. XX.  Below, I am going to just paste in as "2022" all the notes on Rev 13 from that other study.  If I add or modify that interpretation, it will just be incorporated here.
 

(((Everything from *!* to !*! is a straight up copy from the "Key Scriptures dealing with final judgements" note, and they begin just below "1/24/22".  These are SEPARATE and should not be copied over. ))))

*!*
2022 - From "Key Scriptures...."
Then, let's start Rev 13 again.  
Here is how events unfold in Daniel (Daniel, because that story and this one in Revelation must mesh), in the Spiritual realm, with four beasts arising from the sea:
3 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another. ...
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. [Dan 7:3, 7-8 ESV]

And here is Revelation:
1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.
2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. [Rev 13:1-2 ESV]

Both these beasts arise from the sea.  There is little in the physical descriptions to overlap.  Daniel saw great iron teeth.  John saw a mouth like a lion's mouth.
The blasphemous names identify this beast as an associate of the dragon standing on the sand in 12:17. No associate of Christ would have blasphemous names.  The dragon gives this beast his power and throne - and great but not all his authority.  This makes the beast from the sea very powerful indeed, but still under the authority of the dragon.

Now, Rev 13:3 presents an interpretive difficulty, if we stick with our heuristics:
3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. [Rev 13:3 ESV]
To this point, I have seen the "heads" as nations on earth, or as dominions ruled by a demon in spiritual terms.  So, in those terms, this beast in Revelation is from the sea - so a demonic overlord - under whom are seven dominions, each ruled by a horn, which would be a lesser demon, or even a beast, in the spiritual realm.  The "head" receives a mortal wound.  Perhaps we need to recall that this is a vision - not a physical event - and understand this as the demon in charge of this dominion being wounded, and this demon recovering.  We need to see this as the demonic counterpart to the crucifixion.  It goes on to say the people worshiped the dragon and the beast - it does NOT say they worshiped the head that had been healed - at least it doesn't say that yet.  We don't see anything about this in Daniel 7 either...(We sill see it later, though.  They do worship this head, and if this is a dominion, they worship the dominion?)

Ahhh...the mortally wounded head was one of the seven heads of the beast.  An attack by heaven's forces on one of the spiritual dominions appears to have succeeded and wrested control from the beast, but recovered in a brilliant counterattack, maintaining demonic control of the seven dominions.  If the beast could defeat heavenly forces to maintain his grip on an important dominion, and if, as we saw earlier, people in this time are aware of these beings, then the victory might indeed draw many mortal worshipers to the beast, and to the dragon that empowers him.  These are lost people, aware  to some degree of the fate that awaits the losers of this conflict, and they  here choose a side based on the victory of Satanic forces in this dominion.  Ok...that kind of works...what is next?
Perhaps still more accurately...the beast from the sea is a demon, thrown down from heaven in the previous chapter.  This is a demon of demons but it is now on the earth.  The wound in it's "literal" head was received in the heavenly battle described in 12:7.  So this beasts physical description reflects the organization of the spiritual realm into seven dominions, but these are real heads on a real beast also.  As real as the four cherubims surrounding the throne.  So this beast appears on earth.  It is the biggest demon in Satan's forces.  People see this beast, and they note that one of it's heads (think three headed monster from Godzilla movies)  is severely wounded, incurably, unfixably damaged.  If this head dies, maybe the whole beast is weakened and something else takes its place.  But the wound is healed somehow.  Somehow, and broken demonic angel is repaired, and the people of earth see this supernatural thing that ought to have died restored to full vigor.  People worship both the dragon and the beast.

This verse next:
5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. [Rev 13:3, 5 ESV].  
We saw this beast in Daniel:
11 "I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. [Dan 7:11 ESV]
The horn in Daniel speaking great words corresponds here to a beast speaking great words.

The interpretation here is daunting.  We cannot just helter skelter interchange heads, horns and beasts.  We must be consistent.  But these two either are equivalent, or both the spiritual and earthly "beasts" are quite mouthy.  I tend to prefer that there is only one of these, and that both Daniel and John are describing the same entity.  In Daniel, where we get the heavenly view, we saw both demons and men referred to as "beasts" (see Dan 7:17 above).  We haven't seen that to this point in Revelation - unless we say this verse is where that changes, and that just as in Daniel, right out of the blue in this vision, John uses the word "beast" to refer to Kings of the earth.

Or...what if the "mouth given to the beast" refers to a man being raised to the same "overlord" position in the earthly dominions as this beast has in the spiritual dominions?  A man gets "promoted" to ruler over the seven kings?  A man operating with the power of the beast from the sea?  Interpreted this way, "beast" still refers to the creature from the sea to whom Satan gave authority, and mouth is an earthly spokesman?  We have to rest the argument on the interchangeability of the word "beast" to refer to either demonic or mortal creatures.  

No.  I will stick with "beast" in Rev 13:5 still referencing the beast from the sea in vs 1, to whom Satan gave great power.  We saw in Daniel that the four spiritual beasts in Daniel have four earthly counterparts, and here we see the ascension of the earthly counterpart to the beast over 7.  Perhaps the earthly counterpart will be that 8th, who was one of the seven...(is that the write phrase?).  The earthly actions of this human equivalent to the beast from the sea are described through vs 10.  Among them, he will exercise power 42 months.  We always call him the antichrist, but he is not.  He is a man so inextricably in league with the beast from the sea, and possessing angelic power beyond what has ever before been exercised, that he seems like a supernatural being.  He is NOT!  Surely this reference to the 42 months is alone enough to cement the interpretation that the mouth given the beast is a man ruling on earth over seven kings.  He will blaspheme "the Lord and his Temple".  The rebuilt temple in Jerusalem perhaps?  It will conquer saints - the verses that say it might deceive the very elect if not cut off.  (24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. [Mat 24:24 KJV]).  It (this is the pronoun used in the ESV.  Is it the correct one?  Did John refer in Revelation to the "mouthpiece" as "it", or is that some interpretation of the translators built in to the ESV?  
Further explanation:  From the discussion below, my conclusion is that this beast in 5 is the first beast from the earth.  If from earth, he is a man.  He is given great power from the first beast of the sea, who received it from the dragon.  A hierarchy is being put into place.  But look precisely at vs 5:
"And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months." [Rev 13:5 ESV]

There does not appear to be any indication here that vs 5 is talking about a different beast than vs 4, yet I think it must be different.  So how do we know it is different?  The pronoun "autos" is used in 13:1 of the beast from the sea, and that same pronoun is used in 13:5 of that beast.  I had hoped the pronoun for 13:1 was "it", and for 13:5 was him.  But it is not.  It should be said, however that "autos" is a much used word, appearing 5785 times in the KJV.  Ubiquitous.  Not once is the word translated "it", and it is in all cases masculine.
So.  The ONLY clue I can find that makes this beast in 5 a different beast than the beast in four is inference from vs 11.  If the beast in 11 is the second beast - and John clearly says that it is - then where do we find the first beast?  John says in 11 that it is a second beast from the earth.  We know the beast in 13:1 is from the sea.
Actually...there is a second possible clue.  This beast/man in vs 5 is given power for 42 months.  We see many other places that Antichrist will rule for 42 months.  BUT, it is also true - from Daniel - that this spiritual beast rules for that same time period...so really, on the one firm clue, and even that is inference.
I am having trouble moving on from this...It is a lynch pin in how I am looking at these verses and in how I tie Daniel 7 to this chapter in Revelation.  So this:
"I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." [Dan 7:8 ESV]
Does this horn in Daniel 7 represent a man or an angel?  Here is the explanation of this beast from Dan. 7:
"'These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth." [Dan 7:17 ESV]
So the four beasts represent men, since they arise out of the earth.  That is, the beasts themselves are men.
"As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings." [Dan 7:24 ESV]
We are specifically told that the horns are kings - which means men since the kingdom spoken of is on earth - and the one that arises is different, but still a man.
"He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." [Dan 7:25 ESV]
Surely this description matches Rev. 13:5-8.  This beast in Rev 13:5 is a man, is the antichrist, and is so despite the lack of a clear "transition" to make it easy to know this.  
"But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end." [Dan 7:26 ESV]
I would say further that this confirms that 13 is in some way an overlay of what we saw before concerning the two witnesses.  They witness for 42 months.  The Antichrist rules for 42 months.  These periods are essentially concurrent, when also means that Revelation is NOT strictly in chronological order.  You have to unravel the parallel descriptions of events.


((Putting in Rev 13:6, 7 in the NASB:
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, [that is,] those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. [Rev 13:6-7 NASB95]
So NASB translates it in a way that makes it interpretable as a person, rather than trying to restrict us to "it", a non-human interpretation.  I do not know which is right, but I know which one fits best the interpretation I am making.))

Rev 13:10 is a quote from Isaiah 33:1.  I am not sure why this is relevant...I am not smart enough to see the connection.  They don't even look that much alike...
10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. [Rev 13:10 ESV]
1 Ah, you destroyer, who yourself have not been destroyed, you traitor, whom none has betrayed! When you have ceased to destroy, you will be destroyed; and when you have finished betraying, they will betray you. [Isa 33:1 ESV]
Quite a stretch.  Perhaps the ESV translators are mistaken about what passage John had in mind...
But look at the ending in Rev...A call for endurance.  Great Tribulation will be an unbearable time, even for the elect.  

Ahhh...more corroboration from vs 11:
11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. [Rev 13:11 ESV]
There cannot be another arising from the earth unless one came before!  The beast in vs 1 clearly came from the sea.  So what beast preceded this beast in vs 11?  We MUST read into 13:5 that the mouth was also a beast.  So we need to keep our spiritual and our earthly beasts straight.  To Review:
Satan stands on the sands of the sea as the great dragon, and watches a spiritual beast arise from the sea.  So there are two spiritual creatures here.
An earthly beast arises as mouthpiece  and counterpart to the beast from the sea in vs. 5.  In hindsight, the word beast in five does not refer BACK to the beast from the sea, and mouth does not refer to an earthly beast.  John is now seeing - in vision - the first earthly beast, and there follow all the attributes of this earthly beast, that is in fact a man.  And now in vs 11, a second earthly beast.  

This next:
12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. [Rev 13:12 ESV]
So much here!!!!
This second beast is delegated power from the first, but only when the first so authorizes.  So as power is delegated from the dragon to the beast from the sea to the first beast from the earth and now to the second beast from the earth, the exercise of power is ever more restricted.  
See also that the second beast makes people worship the first.  This second beast is the world demonic high priest - a religious leader corresponding to the demonic king of the earth who makes war on the saints.  And look at that last part!
We now know that the first beast, a man, promoted to king over seven kings, is the one who's mortal wound was healed.  So what retrenchment does that require?  The mortal wound was to one of the heads of the beast from the sea.  Now we see that there was a corresponding blow to an earthly beast that almost killed it.  It is the one wounded mortally who ascends as earthly counterpart to the beast from the sea.  He arises from the 10 horns by usurping three, moving one over to the kingdom he wrested from the three, and then ascending as King over 7.  This all fits neatly and precisely.  I have never seen or heard all this before.  I have never seen the interpretation of Daniel or Revelation discussed as "scenes in heaven" vs "scenes on earth".  But doing so clarifies much, at least to me.
No, this is not it.  The wounded head was the literal head of the beast from the sea who had seven heads.  The wound was to a spiritual, not a mortal entity.  So this man who functions as the high priest of the earth is required that the people of earth worship the first beast - the ONE FROM THE SEA - and there will not be a human with a mortal wound that miraculously heals.  Again, context, in my opinion, requires that the beast here referenced is the first beast from the sea. NOT the mouth.

This second beast convinces/coerces the people on earth to make an image of the beast.  In image.  An abomination.  Hmm...if this is so, then even to this point there has been no rapture.  If this image is the abomination of desolation, just now being molded, then it has not yet stood where it ought not to stand.

This is correct.  What has changed since I wrote the above is that I see where 12/13 are overlaid on the seals and trumpets and thunders, not sequential to them.  

The events in vss 5-18 are the rise to power of Antichrist, DURING the sixth seal or possibly from a little before.  We know that the unveiling of this statue to the world is the sign that our "gathering together to him in the air" is

Compare this in Revelation:
"and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived." [Rev 13:14 ESV]
to this in Matthew 24:
""So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)," [Mat 24:15 ESV]
"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." [Mat 24:21 ESV]
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." [Mat 24:22 ESV]
"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." [Mat 24:27 ESV]
Hmmm...The image is of the demonic beast from the sea.  They will worship that demon, that angelic being, and the dragon who gives him power, that is even greater than the beast.  It is NOT the image of a man.
The Matt 24 verses tell us, confirm to us, that this image is unveiled just before Great Tribulation begins.  Look here:
""Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." [Mat 24:29 ESV]
"Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." [Mat 24:30 ESV]
"And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [Mat 24:31 ESV]
Vs 21 said Trib starts here.  Oh!!!  The statue will be  unveiled.  The demonic association of the Antichrist with the beast from the sea and the dragon on the sand will be simultaneously revealed like a "shot heard round the world".  The gloves will come off, and Antichrist will begin to persecute the church - AND the Jews - with great vigor.  He will be thwarted in his attack on the Jews, and then turn to the church, as in Rev 12:17.  This attack, this persecution, is what Jesus is warning about in Matt 24:15-27.  This is what New Covenant believers will have to flee without looking back.  It won't last very long, and then vss 29 to 31 come, and Jesus raptures out his people, those given him.  How is vs 31 NOT the rapture?  And after this, the 144,000 are sealed and Great Tribulation for 3 1/2 years commences.  
How can anyone have missed all these "ties", these reinforcing verses that "lock up" the interpretation of the end times so neatly.  It is not hard.  Not hard to understand...a bit hard to put it all together.
And here is something else!
It is during this time of distress, between the revealing of the  abomination and the rapture, that all the admonitions to the seven churches are affirmed.  The idea is that the rapture occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days that the church has gone through once Antichrist takes off the gloves and persecutes to the point of death.  The church is urged to "survive", to persevere, to endure...how many similar injunctions?...until this time is over.  Those messages are to the churches, and NOT to the Jews who will return during Great Tribulation, after the church is gone.  Now, all those things make perfect sense!  They are about different things, different times!

This verse:
16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, [Rev 13:16 ESV]
It is the SECOND beast that requires the mark.  NOT the first!  (Again, NASB95 refers to this beast as a he - a man, a person - and not as an "it", in clear contrast to the ESV.

And then the verse that everyone know:
17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. [Rev 13:17-18 ESV]
The name of which beast?  The second beast requires a name or number, a specific name or number.  Is it the name of the first beast, or of the second one?  Do religious leaders have numbers?  John Paul XXIII maybe?  As of 2/2013, there had been 266 Popes.  That is still the number.  Maybe we are yet 400 popes from the end?  This is really way out there.  But what if the number is of the second beast?  That is a whole new arena for speculation.

Today, given the "new" interpretation that the church undergoes great persecution between the time the statue is revealed and rapture, I now think the mark of the beast WILL be required BEFORE the rapture.  That is why Jesus is telling them about it.  He is telling "the church" what they need to know to get them to the rapture.  I don't know what happens in Revelation 14, but 12-13 are about events up to the rapture.  Nothing after that will be important to the church because then we will be gone.  This is confirmed by looking in Matthew to the next verse after 31 above - with 31 clearly being the rapture.  The discourse changes subject.  The recounting of sequential events ends.  Jesus was talking to HIS church, and that is the end of the advice that they will need.  If the church - if Christians - can make it to the rapture, then the rest is not about them.
All those admonitions to the churches, and the rewards that will be handed out, are for those who go through this terrible time period.  Perhaps it is only these who will receive rewards?  Only those who persevere through the Tribulation, and right up to the rapture.
Wow.  Just wow!

(Some additional thoughts from later in the day yesterday - Is it this beast that arises from the sea as Satan watches from the sand that Michael has been restraining in heaven for millennia, because if he does ever get loose down here, he and Satan together can deceive the very elect?  Doesn't this make really good sense?  Symbolically, Satan is standing on the beach, between earth and sea, and able to influence, to observe, to command his troops in either realm, both the beasts that arise from the earth, and those that arise from the sea. What a profound picture of those last days!)
(And a thought from the next day, 1/25:  Is this Revelation 13 beast from the sea the same beast that is killed in Daniel, at the final judgment of the angels by The Ancient of Days Himself?  What questions to explore!)

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [Rev 20:4 NIV]
So if I connect this to Ezekiel 38, 39, and I say that prophecy is about a battle at the end of Great Tribulation, then I might also say that these thrones are the ones where the 12 apostles are seated to judge - not the whole world, but the 12 tribes of Israel.  And the martyrs of those killed during t/gt are all Jews, returned from all the nations of the world, who were tracked down and murdered by the beast from the earth and the second beast from the earth.  Here are the verses:
28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [Mat 19:28 ESV]
30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [Luk 22:30 ESV]
Surely does fit well...Copying to the "Radical View..." note also.
Just consider the implications of this, if it is so.
Maybe ho bema ho theos is the throne of The Ancient of Days, and is only in heaven, and ho bema ho christos is the throne of the Son, and is only on earth.  That's why the thrones look different.  They ARE different, and Paul knew it.

!*!



All notes below here are from 2021 backwards.  All above here are 2022 notes, and my current "best" interpretation:

2021 -The last line of 12 says this:  "...And he stood on the sand of the sea."  If this is correct, it is the dragon who is standing here.  But there is a footnote that says "Some manuscripts "And I stood...." connecting the sentence with 13:1"  It does not give me even a clue as to which manuscripts say it which way.  Hmm...NASB actually puts that sentence in Chapter 13 as the beginning of the first verse.  And the MSB note says that "sands of the sea" is indicative of the nations of the world.  I don't see - at least so far - that getting this right is a critical matter.  But we shall see.  But...if the dragon just decided to pursue "the rest of her offspring", I don't really see him "standing" around on the shoreline.  It would seem to me that it is John standing there and continuing to see events unfold, beginning with Satan's method to wipe out all the Jews he can, having been thwarted in his plans for complete genocide.

But...if we look at it that way, then this beast coming up is appearing...when, exactly?  The note above reminds me that BTN says 12-14 are a digression, relating what is happening during this time from Satan's perspective, from the beginning of Tribulation up until the 7th trumpet.  I really have a hard time with that though, and the key point is that I think Satan is thrown out of heaven right after the 7th trumpet.  So if he's been in heaven all this time, then isn't his perspective the same as John's up until after the 7th Trumpet?  So I think the end of Rev 12, right on into 13 is a continuation.  (I am going to peek ahead to Chapter 15...and see if that forces a re-evaluation on my part...Hmm...15 is about the angels with the seven bowls getting ready to pour out the last of God's wrath on the earth, and so we are again looking at what is going on in heaven.  So nothing in what I've put together up to this point is affected by that.  I believe that so far, having 12 and 13 taking up the narrative of this critical 1260 and proceeding in chronological order within that time, still works.  There is admittedly a LOT going on.  I will continue to base my understanding on this point of view, and see where it takes me.  So, given that, we now have yet another major event to fix in time...)
2021 - After sleeping on this overnight, it occurs to me that perhaps Chapters 12-14 are tell us what has been happening down on earth while the events in heaven have been recounted up to here.  Surely the first few verses of 12 are a vision, but a vision of what has occurred on earth.  Israel has produced the Messiah, and He has done his work and returned to heaven.  Satan gets thrown down from heaven, which seems a natural result of the proclamation that accompanies the 7th Trumpet.  It says 13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. [Rev 12:13 ESV].  So Satan is on the ground now - not in heaven, and what he is doing is about what's going on in the world rather than in heaven.  He is no longer standing and accusing.  If the sixth and seventh trumpets are almost simultaneous, at the beginning of the 1260 days, and that 1260 either marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation, or is entirely contained within Great Tribulation, then we can have Satan's exile and the rise of the beast happening at the beginning of that 1260 period.

((A little side study here:
3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." [Rev 11:3 ESV]
6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. [Rev 12:6 ESV]
The ones on God's side get 1260 days of protection.

2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. [Rev 11:2 ESV]
5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. [Rev 13:5 ESV]
The evil ones get authority for 42 months.)))

(2021 - Been at this over 2 hours.  And now I see that I have two sets of notes for 13, and I'm not sure I agree with either one.  So here is the plan.  I am going to read straight on through today's chapters, to stay on schedule and finish up my fourth reading of the Bible on schedule tomorrow.  AFTER I have read it all, I will take a break, maybe an exercise break and a "food" break, and then come back to this.  I plan to spend a lot of time on this today, and go through it all in detail.  But I am not going to be able to do it without a break.  So will prioritize the two objectives - First, to stay on schedule with the reading plan, and second, to continue with my End Times Chronology.  Later that day...I never came back to it.  I am still very tired, and not up to tackling 13-18.  After reading through them, it is just ludicrous to think you can get through them in detail in one day.  So I will read the last four chapters tomorrow, and then, if I am not too worn out from those, I will come back to these chapters.  Eventually, I am going to do go through them, and the sooner I do it the fresher they will be.  I will say that 12-14 do seem to be telling us more about what goes on in the sixth and seventh trumpets, but I am not so sure that they are here for clarity.  As in they are part of the ongoing chronology, they just bring several story lines up to date - rather than being the whole story from Satan's viewpoint.  I don't like that approach at all.   I do not believe this beast we're about to talk about is Satan.  He is not the dragon.  Satan is watching this one, sitting back while the beast does the heavy lifting.  Once again, we see the 42 months/1260 days/3 1/2 years.  Surely this puts the beasts beginnings around the same time as all the other 1260's begin.  As I said...different storylines.)

A beast rises from the sea.  7 heads, ten horns like the great red dragon.  The dragon gives his authority to the beast and many worship the beast and the dragon.  Beast has a mortal wound that heals miraculously.  Perhaps this is a fake demonstration that the beast, though killed, can also rise from the dead.  People will be awed and worship.  
The beast has authority 42 months. This is the last half of the tribulation period.  MSB says it is the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer. 30:7), and it is Daniel's 70th week (Dan. 9:24-27).  Has worldwide authority during this time.  All worship him save the elect.  He overcomes the saints.
Another beast from the land, who causes all to worship the first beast.  This is a false prophet, per MSB.  He and Anti-Christ together unite world government and world religion.  In 13:13 this false prophet, who has already faked a death and resurrection, will perform miracles like those of Jesus as part of his deception of the whole world.  
This second beast does great signs, bringing fire down from heaven.  He has an image made of the first beast, and the image breathes and speaks.  Completes an unholy trinity.  (The abomination of desolation).  He kills any who don't worship the beast.  He requires a mark to buy and sell.  The number of the beast is 666.

Second time, 2/25/20 (All these notes, unless they say 2021, are from 2020.
Going to "separate" my comments this year from what I wrote last year.  Seems to be a little difference in my thinking here:
Previously, we noted that the 7 heads are historic kingdoms, and BTN even names each one, that have come and gone, and the ten horns are in the future.  Likely this is a 10 kingdom confederacy that unites in a one world government.  From the sea - that means from the Gentile nations.  Sure Israel has not been a world power except maybe under Solomon which was before the first of the seven. (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and Antichrist's future empire.  "...seven consecutive world empires running their course under Satan's dominion...")

We have backed up again, as we did in 12, to a time before the arrival of Christ.  We are seeing Satan's perspective of what has occurred on earth now.  Chapter 12 was his view of events in heaven and the earthly consequences that it brings, from his initial rebellion until he is cast to earth at the seventh trumpet.  Now, we see events on earth.  Successive kingdoms, under Satan's power.  It was through Satan's exercise of power that Pharoah oppressed God's people, that Assyria destroyed forever the 10 tribes, that Babylon carried Judah into captivity, that Greece overran the known world, and then through Rome - physically as persecution and opposer of the church, and spiritually as the Roman Catholic church? (???  My thought, and kind of a reach...but still).  Spiritually, Rome still opposes the Christian church.  Could also be that Rome's persecution kick started the church, and now we are in the age of the Gentiles, which is really not described in prophecy.  We are in a period of world history that marks time until God is ready to bring about the redemption of Israel.  That time will see the rise of the ten horns.

As in 12, where we sort of jumped ahead to the seventh trumpet, we do so again.  Satan is unleashed/unmasked/unbridled for the 42 months of Great Tribulation - or some part thereof.  It seems to me that Satan's plan to deceive the world into following him, his plan to eliminate any believers at all from the earth - is to emulate the work of Christ during his time on earth.  He will use a plan that worked once, in an attempt to replace the genuine article with his forgery of it.  

He will start with a "man" who is resurrected from the dead.  This is the false Christ.  As Jesus resurrection ushered in his victory, Satan will attempt to usher in his own.  People will truly begin to worship Satan, through this one that has returned from the dead.  As our access is to God through Christ, Satan will be accessed through this Antichrist.  Oh my...I have never seen this before...

Vs 5:
5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. [Rev 13:5 ESV]
Implication is that up to this last 42 months, Satan has been prevented from proclaiming himself god, but in the Great Tribulation he will be allowed even this.  He will destroy believers at will, they will not have divine protection during this horrible time.  This verse:
7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. [Rev 13:7-8 ESV]
The whole world will be under the authority of a single government, who's backer is Satan.  He will be more in control of events on the earth than ever before.

In verse 11 we have a second forgery, this time of the high priest maybe.  If Antichrist is a forgery of the Son, and the image is the forgery of the Spirit, then this one would have to be a forgery of the Father?  But that makes no sense.  A poor forgery perhaps.  No...That first one is a forgery of the Father.  This second beast is a forgery of the Son, since this one exercises the authority of the first.  The forgery has problems.  This second beast does all kinds of signs and wonders, imitating the works of Jesus during his ministry.  They even try to indicate their power over the second heaven by calling down fire...but it never says they control sun, moon, or stars.  They are counterfeit.  Their power is most certainly limited.  Then they make an image of the beast and give it breath, counterfeiting creation, and this third one corresponds to the Holy Spirit.  As the Spirit indwells the saved as assurance of their salvation, this false spirit will mark those who follow after it with a mark on forehead or right hand.  All this is forgery, an attempt to usurp God's own plan for humanity.

18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. [Rev 13:18 ESV]  Doesn't say the number of the Antichrist, but the number of the beast.  The beast is a man...possessed?  Empowered with Satan's power, certainly.  But he was a beast before Satan empowered him.  
His number is 666

2021 - Here are some verses that use the Greek word "therion", translated beast in this verse:
12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."
[Tit 1:12 ESV]

1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.
[Rev 13:1 ESV]

7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. ...
[Rev 17:7-8 ESV]


11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.
12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.
13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast.
[Rev 17:11-13 ESV]

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
[Rev 19:19-20 ESV]

10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. [Rev 20:10 ESV]

So a couple of late night observations.  The beast of Rev 13 is identified to John in Rev. 17:7-8.
The beast is not identified as a monster.
The word "therion" is almost always just a regular animal.  
The quote from Titus is the only place "therion" is used of a man.
The beast comes up out of the pit.  So...is there a man who never died in the pit?  
Men don't have 7 heads, so so maybe the beast rising is the one world government.  If so, how can the number of the beast be the number of a man - if it's a kingdom and not a man.  It can't really be except for that...
10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. [Rev 17:10 ESV]  Kings are generally men.  Five of the horns represent fallen kings/kingdoms?  Seven hills, five of which have fallen?
He is "of" the seven, but is an eighth?  Rev 17:11  This makes it sound like the beast represents a system, and the horns are kingdoms that have exercised power according to that system.  So "one is", which would be the one in charge in Rev 17...but there will be one more.  It does not tell is if the one that is is the eighth, or the one who has not yet come is the eighth?
So as of right now - 8pm on 2/24/21 - the beast is not the antichrist at all.  The beast is the system of government/rule over mankind that has been embraced previously by five kings.  I believe MSB names those five kingdoms.  Six "now is", one is still future, and there is an eighth that somehow doesn't fit in like these others.
It just gets more and more complicated.  The more I read the more I see that I have been so very presumptuous in what I thought I already knew.  It's like I've never even read it precisely.  And that may be so!  The last three times I've read Revelation, I have read 12-18 in a single morning.  Come on!  One day a year on these 7 chapters is nothing at all!




13 Edited - So what that means is that I have taken all the notes from the first three times I made notes on this chapter, and I have consolidated them into a single set of notes.  The reason for this is simple.  The first 12 chapters of Revelation seem to be very straightforward and understandable.  Well...at least the first 11 are, and 12 makes sense to me.  But at Chapter 13, for me at least, all the "simple" goes away and gets well night impossible for me to make sense of it.  So this year - 2021 - I had to just go "off site" and make a lot of notes and ask myself a lot of questions whose answers I'm really not sure about.  I think these questions are the ones that must be answered before you can decide what you think Revelation 13 is really about.  And I mean exactly that.  You have to decide what you think it means, because no one can tell you what it really means.  So what changes at Revelation 12?  John MacArthur says we get the first of 12 visions in Revelation that are highly/completely symbolic representations of something else.  They are not to be taken literally.  That first vision is of the woman about to give birth.  I think the vision goes through vs 5, and vs 6 brings us back to the Revelation Chronology.  So there's that.  I also think that there is another "change" from the first 11 chapters.  I believe that beginning in Chapter 12, we are being brought up to date on events that have been transpiring on the earth during the first 11 chapters.  We saw the seven seals and the seven trumpets as we looked around in heaven and we looked down on the earth to see the effects of the actions taken in heaven.  But up to here, we have not been told about what is going on from the perspective of terra firma.  I think the "story updates" begin in Rev. 12:7 when Satan and his followers are thrown bodily and permanently out of heaven.  He becomes furious in the last vs of 12 after he fails utterly to eliminate the Israelites who are hiding in the wilderness.  

This brings us up to Chapter 13.  We should have gotten a clue that things were about to change when we noticed that some Bibles put "And he stood on the sands of the sea." as verse 12:17b, and others - all reputable translations mind you - put it as verse 13a.  And just to make it fun, the TCR footnoted to 17b says that some manuscripts - manuscripts from which the Bible is translated - render it "And I stood...".  So we don't know where it belongs for sure, and we don't know whether it is Satan standing on the sands, or it is John standing there.  For the life of me, I can't see any reason for Satan - who is entirely furious at this point - to be standing on teh sands.  But if it is John standing there, he is informing us of his change in perspective from heaven to earth.  Remember Rev 4:1, where John is told, in part, and in red letters: 1 ...And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." [Rev 4:1b ESV]  I think this is how it is meant to be understood.  He was in heaven, now he's on earth, to tell us what is happening on earth.

Here is how Chapter 13 begins:
1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. [Rev 13:1 ESV]  So many questions arise that it is pretty much impossible to move on from here without at least trying to answer some of those questions.  The first thing we need to address is exactly who or what this "beast" might be.  I started with the Greek word for beast.  The transliteration of the Greed word is "therion".  In Greek it looks like this:  θηρίον, and is pronounced thay-ree'-on.  It is a neuter noun.  That is, it is neither indicating that the beast is male or female.  Angels, including the ones who follow Satan, are neither male or female.  Here is more information on this word "therion":
12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."   [Tit 1:12 ESV].  This is the only reference I found where the "beast" is actually refer to a human.

7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, [Rev 11:7 ESV].  This is the first use of the word in Revelation.  Note that this beast rises from the bottomless pit, and kills the two witnesses at the end of their 1260 days of testimony.  So it rises near the end of the 6th Trumpet.  On day 1263, they rise from the dead and ascend to heaven in a cloud.  Is this the same beast as the one in 13:1?  Probably not.  In 13:1 the beast rises from the sea.

1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. [Rev 13:1 ESV]  This is the verse we're talking about.  30 of the 46 times this word is used in the Bible are in Revelation.  Ten of the 30 are in Chapter 13.

7 But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. ... [Rev 17:7-8 ESV].  Is this beast in Rev 17 the same as the one in Rev 13?  That is an excellent question, and I think we pretty much have to believe they are one and the same.

11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.
12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.
13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. [Rev 17:11-13 ESV]  Three more uses of therion, still in Chapter 17.  We have to decide if this is the same beast, and proceed once we have decided.  So.  At this point, I believe the beasts in 13 and 17 are the same.

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. [Rev 19:19-20 ESV]  Is the beast in 19 the same as the one in 17?  In 13?  In both?

10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. [Rev 20:10 ESV]  Last mention of the beast.  This one is associated directly with the false prophet - they are a team.  Is this the same beast as any of the others?  Are they all the same?  

I believe all mentions of the beast from Rev 13:1 on are the same creature.  And here is another really good point.  It is a beast, it is always a beast, it is NEVER called Antichrist even once in the book of Revelation.  That is what we all commonly assume - that beast = Antichrist, but it does not say that anywhere at all.

Next, we need to determine who this beast is - and we need to reconcile all descriptions of the beast to each other.  If they're all the same creature, then nothing about any one can exclude any of the others.  I started with the description in Rev. 17 since it is the most extensive.  Here is what it tells us about the beast:
1.  The beast was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit.  Uh oh...This sounds more like the beast in Rev. 11 that we excluded.  Maybe we shouldn't have.  So already we have a potential crippling problem.  For now, let's just remember that a several things come out of that pit during Revelation.  And lets remember that a beast rising out of the sea may be more symbolic than literal.  For now though, let's move on.
2. Look at the time stamp.  It tells us the beast is immortal.  It used to be around, is not around when John is shown the judgement of the great prostitute, but its rise from the bottomless pit is imminent when the prostitute is judged.  So here is a possibility for a "reference point" in our chronology.  If this is the best of Rev 13, the prostitute is judged before that beast is turned loose.
3. Those who are alive but lost when the beast rises, will marvel BECAUSE it is, was, and will be again.  Some things to note.  These people do not have their "names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world."  So God knew from before there was time who would be saved.  These people are not saved, and none of them is going to be saved.  They are going to hell anyway.  These hopelessly lost are the ones impressed by the beast.  They must somehow recognize that he is immortal.  That he has been before.
4. A very interesting phrase now, in Rev. 17:9:  9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;  Anyone who says the Bible should be easy to understand should read this verse.  I clearly says that understanding this next phrase is for the simple.  Seven heads are seven mountains.  But...17:1 said she was seated on many waters, not many mountains!  Completely different Greek words.  So yeah, complicated, but...let's stay focused.  We are looking at who the beast is, not the woman.  The heads are mountains...in this vision of the prostitute...which is symbolic,not literal.  The mountains are symbols of something else, even as the heads symbolize mountains.  I think the seven heads, the seven mountains...are the seven theaters of battle where spiritual warfare is being waged.  The Prince of Persia was over one of these seven theaters.  Persia is one of the spiritual domains, it is one of the heads, it is one of the things symbolized by the mountains the woman is sitting on.
5. That was verse 9.  This in vs 10:  10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. [Rev 17:10 ESV]  The seven heads are seven mountains, but also seven kings.  But look what it says about these kings.  Five have fallen.  That puts those heads in the past, but all are still heads of the same living beast.  One is.  So...the beast itself is not a king, because we were just told in vs 8 that the beast, at least at present, "is not", but soon will be.  Hmm...So the seven heads all have the beast in common, all are appended to the beast, all have their source in the beast, yet they can "be" independently of the presence of the beast.  We are getting to it now I think.  All seven kings depend on the same "formula" for their power.  The formula is perhaps violent conquest and rule.  Their power is derived from their military might, not from their genius, their diplomacy, their obedience to God.  They all live by the sword.  The beast, then, is something like "the demon of war", who guides and directs a human conqueror to make war and win war and grow powerful.  I'm really liking this idea of who and what the beast really is.  BTN says the seven heads are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Kingdom of the Man of Sin (I am so very hesitant to call him Antichrist ever again.)   That makes Rome the one that now is.  It was the one that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A. D., and it was the last great empire.  All that now is splintered off as pieces of what was the Roman Empire.  It is the empire of the Age of the Gentiles.  Remember Nebuchadnezzar's statue?  The toes were all mixed up clay and bronze, unstable, always changing, no one on top.  That is the Rome of today.
6. Oh no...This verse:  11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. [Rev 17:11 ESV]  What can this mean?  Does this awkward phrase mean that somehow the beast is "part of the team", it belongs because it is the common methodology of the seven, but is an eighth because it is not itself a king but is the demon behind them all?  Maybe that's it.  Maybe the translators just didn't know what to do with this sentence.
7. When he comes, he will remain only a little while.  He's been locked up for the whole Age of the Gentiles presumably.  He's only going to be loose for something a little over 1260 days to influence the nations of the world to make war on Christ.  
8. There is still more.  The 10 horns are 10 Kings not yet in power.  These too are associated with the beast, but are not the beast.  They are men who have position, but not actual power.  Perhaps as the one world government is realized, these 10 will all be at the top of their respective geology, but no strategy for combined rule is in place.  Perhaps the man the beast "inhabits" will be top dog, and the 10 will rule under him.  In that way, they have power, delegated by the Man at the Top.  They are horns on the beast, so they too will be using conquest for their positions.
9. They will have power for only one hour.  I doubt that is literal, but I don't know what an hour signifies.  I know what time, and times, and half a time is about.  But an hour?  Their hour will be together with the beast.  They will make war on the Lamb, and they will lose.  This is likely about Armageddon.  Hard to figure this one.  It says they will give their authority to the beast...but....the beast is giving power to them, right?  Perhaps this means they will give themselves over completely to the direction of the beast - or be taken over by the beast.  Perhaps they rule independently under this 7th King for a VERY brief time, and then the beast takes over completely, and they are no more than occupied shells.

So.  That is how 17 describes the beast.  Now let's look at the other passages:

(The beast was, during the Mosaic, is not, during the Gentile age, will be through the Son of Perdition in Trib/Great Trib.)

14
2023 - Just finished reading the notes prior to reading the chapter.   Everything started to break down in 13...maybe a bit all the way back to 12.  But 14 seems to just be continuing the unraveling of all I thought I knew.  I think the keys are below in the paragraph that starts "I never noticed this...", along with the four stacked 2023's.  If I cannot separate "vision" from chronology, then I can't even really guess.  You have to know or you can't figure out anything here.  The visions do NOT have to fit, but they do have to match the chronology.  
2023 - So I don't know if we are in a vision, or we are watching chronologically.  

2022 - So 13 ended with the mark of the beast.  I believe now that this is still before the signs in the heavens that portend the rapture.  So technically, that would have us still in the fifth seal.  The Antichrist has risen to power, the false prophet has built and unveiled the abomination, and those allied with Antichrist are ravenously pursuing the church.  Here is how Jesus describes these days:
"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." [Mat 24:21 ESV]
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." [Mat 24:22 ESV]

Second time, 2/25/20
The Lamb and the 144,000 are seen on Mount Zion.  Starts with "I looked...", indicating a new vision.  Are we to jump backwards as we did in 12 and 13, skipping over the Gentile age, or will this be a different scenario?
2022 - Where are the 144,000 standing?  Exactly?  Vs 3 says they are before the throne, before the four living creatures, and before the elders.  We saw this throne in Chapter 4.  This throne is in heaven, it is NOT on the earth, the 144,000 are NOT on the earth.  This throne is on Mt. Zion - in heaven, and the Lamb that we saw in Chapter 1 is standing there with the 144,000.  So the scene has shifted from the persecution on earth during the time of mark of the beast and before the rapture to heaven.  We have not yet been given any clues as to whether we are still before the rapture and seeing events in heaven that occur just before that rapture, or we have moved backward again, or perhaps even forwards.  But Jesus still appears as the Lamb.  

2022 - Compare these two verses:
"Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads." [Rev 14:1 ESV]
"The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name." [Rev 3:12 ESV]
If we tie these together, then the 144,000 have conquered.  They have received their rewards - the names written...The names of Father and Son, not the name of the beast.  So at this point, these are 144,000 martyrs from what I will call "the time between", or they are the "first raptured".  We have seen them sealed before, in Chapter 7.  Just before they are sealed, in 6:12, the sixth seal was opened.  

Vs 3b says this:
3 ...No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. [Rev 14:3b ESV]  I guess the key is what is meant by "redeemed from".  Are they resurrected and standing on a heavenly Mt. Zion, or are they redeemed in that that are saved out of the world, and the picture of them with their redeemer is part of the vision?  BTN says these are the ones who survive that onslaught by Satan and the beasts during Great Tribulation.  Perhaps these are the ones hidden in the desert, that Satan gives up on killing and turns his wrath to others.  These maybe are the survivors - in earthly physical bodies, who go into the Millennial reign, who offer sacrifices in the new temple, and who are truly, once and for all, God's chosen people!  They are firstfruits in the Millennial perhaps, in the new kingdom.  

Then three angels:
The first seems to be preaching the gospel still one more time, the very last chance for repentance before the final wrath of God comes and destroys unbelievers, and establishes his perfect kingdom on earth.
The second announces the fall of Babylon.  This would seem to represent the dominion of Satan - the end of the seven heads and 10 crowns, of political intrigue and earthly power.  Of the corruption of good men by the immorality and excess that comes with great power in a world ultimately ruled by the Prince of Darkness.  It will no longer be Satan who dispenses the "best of the world" to those who serve him best.  This corrupt organization is at an end.
The third announces irrevocable judgement on those who follow the beast and take his mark during these last dark days of the earth.  Those with the mark of the beast have "sold their birthright", never to regain it.  They have taken the mark for comfort in the moment and despised the reward of faithfulness.  

I never noticed before, but there is this phrase:
12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. [Rev 14:12 ESV]  An admonition to saved people who will still be living at this time.  We have seen the 144,000, and perhaps they are the only Jews who will survive what is to come, but maybe not.  Maybe this call is to both Jews and Gentiles converted and faithful and surviving despite great persecution.  They still must endure a little longer...and this is their pep talk.  We saw this same phrase earlier:
10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. [Rev 13:10 ESV]  In this chapter, we've just been told that Satan will make war on the saints, and that they will not be protected (Therefore, this must be addressed to believers not among the 144,000, because they will be protected through all this.  This may very well be Gentiles - the very few - who will be saved AFTER the age of the Gentiles is over.  There were a few not of Israel that we are told were saved in the OT, perhaps these are the correspondence in the end times.
2023 - We know that in 12:6 the woman goes into hiding for 1260 days.  That gives us a "lock" on the time of the vision.
2023 - We know that in 13:5, the beast is given power for 42 months.  Again, that narrows down "when" this could be.
2023 - In 13:10 we  have a call for endurance of the saints.
2023 - In 14:12 we have a call for endurance of the saints.
Are these the kinds of things we need to look for now in order to get a handle on these visions?  And we also must decide whether the vision of 12 ends at vs 6, or we are still in the vision through the end of the chapter.
Then does 13 start a "new" vision?  Does it continue the vision that started in 12?  Where does it end?  DOES IT end?  Does it go all the  way to 14:5?  Could be...see the note well below on 14:6...

2022 - No.  This is about the church in the time after the Abomination is revealed and yet before the rapture.  This is the time Jesus talks about in Matt. 24:
"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." [Mat 24:21 ESV]
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." [Mat 24:22 ESV]
This is also the time referenced at the end of each of the letters to the churches.  For instance:
Ephesus
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'" [Rev 2:7 ESV]
Smyrna
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'" [Rev 2:11 ESV]
Pergamum
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.'" [Rev 2:17 ESV]
Thyatira:
"The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations," [Rev 2:26 ESV]
"and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father." [Rev 2:27 ESV]
"And I will give him the morning star." [Rev 2:28 ESV]
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" [Rev 2:29 ESV]
Sardis:
"The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels." [Rev 3:5 ESV]
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" [Rev 3:6 ESV]
Philadelphia:
"The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name." [Rev 3:12 ESV]
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" [Rev 3:13 ESV]
Laodicea:
"The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." [Rev 3:21 ESV]
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"" [Rev 3:22 ESV]
These all start the same way - they are all about the SAME time.  They all say conquer.  They all say "to those who can hear".  Rev 13:10 and 14:12 say here is the call, and all those letters say "Hear!  Listen!".  This is finally, at last, what the letters are about.  This says that the churches of the last days, the churches that go into the Tribulation, will be experiencing still the same kinds of problems that the first century church was dealing with.  Each and every one of those churches is encouraged to hear, to endure, and ultimately to conquer the unprecedented attacks that will be leveled against it between the time the abomination is revealed and the rapture takes them out.   

A detour comes here, back to the stars falling in Rev 6 and their linkage to the fig tree that Jesus describes after the rapture in Matt 24:31.  Go read that (in 6), it is important to what is happening in this chapter.  And then ...back here to 14 again.  In Rev 6:12 the stars fell.  It is the rapture that is at the very gates in Matt .  BUT, even at the last verse of 6, the rapture has yet to occur.  It is surely at the gates, but it has not occurred.  

2022 - As I read it right now today, those 144,000, equally representative of the 12 tribes of Israel, receive the seal of God on their foreheads in Rev 7:5-8.  They are Jews.  They are perhaps the remnant?  God has held on to this many.  These are Jews who can see, and who can hear.  These are BOTH the church and the physical seed of Abraham.  These are very special people.  They are sealed before the seventh seal is opened. It looks for all the world like they are sealed on the earth, before the rapture (2023 - AFTER the rapture!).  Chapter 7 then moves again to heaven, and we see the multitudes gathered before the throne.  So 7:9 is AFTER the rapture, and it is the raptured who are standing before that throne.  The awards, I believe now, are about to be given, or have been given.  The awards promised to the seven churches.  Could it be that these awards - these bema seat awards - are reserved ONLY for those who endure "the time between"?  Wouldn't that make sense?  These get rewards for their endurance of the worst time for the Godly that will ever be in the history of man.  And everyone else, who died before tribulation began?  They are the workers, some of whom came early and some late, some in the first century as the church began, and others who came later, right up until the last day before the tribulation began.  ALL OF THESE, who died as believers before Tribulation began - before the first seal - are treated the same - no special rewards.  (Later - or they are treated the same wrt rewards as those who do have to enter Tribulation, but I think the first interpretation makes more sense.)  It makes sense that these would first be sealed, and THEN raptured if they are to be the firstfruits.  Perhaps these will be the very first ones up when Jesus comes, even before the dead in Christ...but I guess that isn't necessary.  They could be among those who are alive and remain.  
SO, to this point, the 144,000 are sealed and then raptured.  In Chapter 14, they are in heaven at the throne.  What else do we learn about them from Chapter 14?
The scene in 14:1 connects exactly as to time and location with 7:9.  So now we know where we are in 14:1.  We are post rapture.  We better understand "the time between", but no real details have been given about this time.  We skipped from the mark of the beast to the post-rapture gathering of the saints in heaven, and the scene is IN HEAVEN.  It says Mt. Zion, but in this case, it is a mountain in heaven.  

2023 - In the paragraph above, I noted that the location of the 144,000 is the same in both 7:9 and 14:1.  The scene is just after the rapture in 7:9.  So...instead of being "missionaries" as I have always thought, perhaps these 144,000 are the saved Jews that God has kept.  Perhaps these are indeed the first raptured, the firstfruits - I mean it says in so many words that they are - when Christ comes to get us.  Remember that whole thing about "the Jew first"...Need to figure out if they are resurrected or taken up alive.  Need to realize that if they do indeed leave at the rapture, then it almost demands that ALL OT saved be rapture also.  That is a big change in my thinking if I go there.  And it will mean that not one single saved individual is left after the rapture.  And perhaps no more ever will be...

2022 - The sound coming from heaven is described.  In 14:2, John hears "a voice".  The Greek is singular.  One voice.  It sounds like many waters, thunder, and harpists on their harps.  One voice, that sounds like MANY waters, and MANY harpists, and like thunder.  Here is an interesting thing.  The first thing mentioned, the water, is a neuter noun.  No gender, but plural genitive.  Thunder, is a genitive singular feminine.  And harpists is a genitive plural masculine.  Look how utterly "encompassing" this description is!  Try to imagine the sound of a "masculine harps", neuter "waters" and a female thunder.  That's the description.  These are the 144,000 raptured Jews singing in the presence of their Messiah!  ONLY these Jews are singing, ONLY these Jews CAN sing this song.  It is theirs alone.  Vs 3 says they  have been "redeemed from the earth".  Again, that says they were raptured out.  They are virgins - so...perhaps there will be a movement in Israel that we have not yet seen.  Vs 4b says they follow the Lamb wherever he goes.  Guess who will follow Jesus into battle at the second coming a few chapters from now?  They will likely be the first in line behind the Lamb.  These are those who will enter the Millennial with Christ.  We can tie them back to Philadelphia by the names written on them, and also by the statement in 3:10, "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth." [Rev 3:10 ESV].  These 144,000 Jews will NOT have to go through Great Trib.  ALL the rest who are to enter the Millennial kingdom DO have to go through it.  No wonder they are singing!

2023 Summary of vss 1-5.  These words describing the 144000:  
Vs. 1 - They have the names of Father and Son on their foreheads.  That is, they are sealed.  That makes them the same as those in Chapter 7.
vs 3 - Whomever is singing is IN HEAVEN before the throne.  It is easy to assume it is the 144000 who are singing.  But it says "no one COULD learn that song".  But...perhaps this is a goose chase...because
vs 4 - "these have been redeemed from mankind", firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
Vs 5 - no lies, blameless.
Are they in heaven???  There is only ONE VOICE, but THEY were singing.  Angels don't sing...Here is where I'm leaving it this year.

2022 - The very next verse:
"Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people." [Rev 14:6 ESV]
"another" angel.  Where was the previous angel seen?  Because we are taking up that narration at that point.  A word search in BLB for the word angel in the book of Revelation says that the last place we saw "angel" was here:
"Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."" [Rev 11:15 ESV].  that is pretty far back...but "another angel" ties them together.  I will proceed from here assuming we are taking up events after the seventh trumpet has sounded.  This does make sense, because in the rest of Chapter 11, the scene remains in heaven, which is also where we are in 14:6.  Good continuity.  And remember also that Rev 12 was the vision - the first of seven - of the woman and the dragon, and then a sort of description/explanation of the real events in heaven that the vision symbolize.  Satan is thrown to earth, begins his persecution, empowers the beast the sea to make war on the woman first, and then on the church - the rest of mankind - the two beasts of the earth arise and then the abomination and the mark occurred.  SO.  The angel that we are seeing here is after the seventh trumpet.  Yes...that last angel we saw blew the seventh trumpet.  He blew it at the end of the prophecy of the two witnesses.  11:14 said "The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come." [Rev 11:14 ESV]...and then the seventh trumpet blows.  So by that accounting, the angel we see in 14:6 appears AFTER the 42 months of the witnesses are elapsed.  We are kind of in "unmarked territory" here, within the last few hours/days/weeks of Great Tribulation.  That's where I think we are.  We will see how that works out...
This angel overhead says "the hour of his judgement has come".  A last offer of the gospel, demonstrating right to the end that God is unwilling for any to perish.  The end of the the age is at hand here.  

2023 - I still like the conjecture above.  If this is "another angel", where was the last angel?  True, we have seen many angels, so instead of the seventh, eighth, ninth and so on, John has sort of lost count, and this is just another.  Even so. that phrase does seem to connect us back to the chronology of Revelation.  It seems to be somewhere in line after the seventh trumpet.  This is important, because that might tell us that everything from 12:1 through 14:5 is vision/sign.  This gets us off the hook of having to explain what is going on here with the 144000.  That scene may be WAY after the events that begin in 14:6  I don't know yet if that is a correct interpretation, but it surely sounds promising at this point!  And it does seem to work.  The narration that ended at the end of Chapter 11 resumes here in 14:6.

2022 - Another verse, another angel:
"Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."" [Rev 14:8 ESV]
This is all that is said.  Salvation was offered, and then a statement made about a done deal.  Babylon HAS fallen.  It is in the past, though we have not yet come to those chapters in Revelation.  When we get to them, perhaps we can understand what this verse means, why is it significant enough that an angel announces that it has happened.  

2022 - Yet a third angel:
"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand," [Rev 14:9 ESV]
"he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." [Rev 14:10 ESV]
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."" [Rev 14:11 ESV]
This is a warning that we might have expected back in 13:16, BEFORE the beast started requiring the mark.  Why does it come here if we are at the end of the 42 months?  Well remember that the third woe is still yet to come.  It has been announced, but it has not occurred.  Remember that we have saved people on earth.  These were saved during Great Tribulation, and the offer of salvation is still on the table per the angel in 14:9.  These, who were NOT raptured out, who were not familiar with this book of Revelation, are perhaps unaware of the irrevocable results of taking that mark.  So here, just before the third woe, the last woe, they are informed and/or reminded what taking the mark entails for them.  These are being prepared for an outpouring of God's wrath on the earth unprecedented since the flood.

2022 - And now this again, for the third time:
"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." [Rev 14:12 ESV]
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Blessed indeed," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!"" [Rev 14:13 ESV]
Both times we've seen it, in 13:10 and here, it was about enduring to the end.  The first time, it was addressed to the saved in "the time between" when God allows the first beast of the earth to "make war on the saints and to conquer them".  Here, it is addressed to saved during Great Trib who are about to undergo unprecedented destruction, who will be tempted to seek refuge under the mark of the beast.  Both times, it is a call for endurance through terrific difficulty.
What of "blessed are the dead who die"?  There is an implication of reward here also, I think.  Their deeds follow them.  Their works will count.

2023 - THE VISIONS/Signs are icons for the 1st century church to visualize/understand the sweep of all history.  They condense the major themes - perhaps a better word is the decrees - of God from beginning to end.

2023 -SUMMARY of 6-11
We are resuming the narration from just just after the 7th trumpet.  We are fast approaching the 7 last plagues.  The end of the world, once and for all is approaching.  Three angels come by.  
The first is a final offer of the gospel to those remaining on earth, to whom surely the truth of God and his power have now been amply and indisputably demonstrated.  The winning side ought to be obvious.  So there is a chance to repent.
The second tells us that Babylon has fallen.  Hmm...In the signs, Satan and his angels have been thrown out of heaven for good.  Satan's administration as ruler of the earth is ended and Jesus is on his way to assume the throne of earth.  Might that finally be what Babylon is about?  Oh my!!!  The way the world works - capitalism, socialism, anarchism, tribalism, feudalism...ALL THESE were invented by Satan to keep us pacified but prisoners of these inherently corrupt, inherently inadequate ways of governing ourselves.  ALL these systems that keep mankind organized toward a goal aim at worldly ambitions.  It is THESE that are ending, and a theocracy is about to be put in place, because only a society organized to serve its creator can bring about the true peaceful fulfilled existence that every person craves.  Yes.  THIS is what Babylon means.  It means so many things that it is no wonder we can't figure out what it represents.  But here it is finally!!!
Third angel tells those who already have the mark, and those who are still tempted to get the mark, of the consequences of their choice.  They are told this AFTER Babylon falls, AFTER they know Satan was defeated.  There is a dire contrast here.  It is like those left on earth are down to two choices, and the time to decide is here an now.  No more chances.  Accept the gospel or you might as well accept the mark.  The consequences of each choice are made crystal clear.
Verses 12, 13 are a pep talk to the saved still on earth - so there WILL BE SOME - to hang on just a little longer.  The bowls will be severe, but the duration will be short.  If you have not yet taken that sign, DO NOT GIVE UP now.  You are almost home, and they are told that endurance will result in great reward.

2022 - Once this call for endurance goes out, it begins:
"Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand." [Rev 14:14 ESV]
An angel sitting on a cloud is told to reap, for the time has come.  This cannot be Jesus, since no angel tells the King what he should do. In vs 15 "another angel" tells the angel on the cloud what to do - no angel would ever instruct Christ.  So the angel on the cloud is perhaps another very high up in the hierarchy.  We have seen death angels before.  At the first Passover, and at the threshing floor in David's time.  Maybe this is the same one, or another like them.

2022 - I would also note here that in vs 14, we are not looking at the earth.  We are looking again at the scene within the spiritual realm.  So the angel reaping ought to be seen in very broad terms.  It is the "overall" version, the "summary report" of what takes place here, from heaven's point of view.  This angel does some serious damage to the earth, though we are not told here specifically what that damage will be.  I suspect that more detail will be given later, and the results on earth of this reaping from heaven will be recounted.  So something later is going to fit back into here.

In 17, yet another angel with a sickle.  So more than one "angel of death".  An angel from the altar tells this second death angel to gather the clusters from the vine.  These are thrown into the winepress of God's wrath, and the blood flows, and the blood is deep.  Grapes are fruit.  They would seem to be good.  Is this a reference to the saved who will also die during the time of God's final wrath?  Perhaps Gentiles, the wild vine grafted onto the good roots.    Perhaps no Gentiles will go into the Millennial alive.  Maybe that's why the Gentiles trample the court for only 42 months.  None will survive that period?

2022 - Here is verse 17:
"Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle." [Rev 14:17 ESV]
The first reaper was on a cloud, and told to "reap the harvest of the earth".  This one comes from inside the temple in heaven, and has this sickle.  Yet another angel, in charge of the fire on the altar, also comes out to give the order to the one from the temple.  We saw this angel from the altar in 8:3-5.  He offered the incense of the prayers of the saints before God, and he threw down ashes which resulted in peals of thunder, rumblings, lightning and an earthquake.  These signs portended the seven trumpets and the momentous events they heralded.  Now we see this angel again, perhaps implementing for the second time God's answers to the prayers of his saints.  This angel gathers the ripe grapes of the earth.  The symbolism is that the harvested grapes go into a winepress and blood comes out as the grapes are processed.  Perhaps the angel on the cloud reaps from the Gentiles and the one from the Temple reaps the Jews?  Makes sense.  The Gentile covenant was about the church that has no building, the Jews are tied always back to the Temple.  Again, maybe we will get more detail on this symbolism later.

2022-2, I would also insert these thoughts from my reading of Luke 3 after the above 2022 notes were made:
"17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."" [Luk 3:17 ESV]  Does this verse connect with Rev 14?
OR, is John talking about the rapture, when the saved are gathered to him in the clouds and the rest of the planet, save for the Jews who will endure that time, moves toward eternity in fire?  If so, it would not be connected with Rev 14 at all, but Rev 6.

"14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe." 16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, "Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe." 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia." [Rev 14:14-20 ESV]

This seems to show the good wheat - the fully ripe - being harvested first, and then in vs 18, the angel in charge of fire, gathers the grape harvest - a different harvest in all respects from the wheat harvest, and this receives the wrath of God.  We have not seen this metaphor previously, where wheat that is eaten is the good part, and wine that is drunk is the bad.  So it is hard to make too much of this, and we must consider that any conclusions about what this means are speculative.  BUT, we ought to give it some thought.  

Later 2022 - 2,
The wheat refers to those saved during the church age, mostly Gentiles.  They will be harvested at the rapture, and the tares left to be burned.  
The Jews are always the vine.  Gentiles are grafted in, but the Jews are the cultivated vine.  These Jews, like the tares, WILL go through the wrath, to be trampled and trodden, to be tested and tried, to be processed from grapes into the better product, the wine.  Note that both the wheat in Luke and the grapes in Revelation are gathered in.  But the grapes stay outside the city, because the M of L is in control of the city.  And the trodding is about the persecution of the Jews, the attempted genocide of the Jews carried out in all the world at the direction of the M of L, and very many - millions and millions - will die during the wrath of God phase of tgt.  Seen this way, John's words, as recorded in Luke, make perfect sense.

2023 Summary of 14-20
Harvests.  But...both sickles appear to harvest the lost.  Further, we appear to have reverted to vision again, but it does not clearly say that.  The harvest is ripe is the term Jesus used for the unsaved who needed to be saved.  The vine gets thrown into the vat of wrath.  Could these just be foreshadowing of the carnage that comes with the bowls?  The lost are about to fall like wheat at harvest time, in great swaths that take out everything in the harvesters path.  Whether Jew or Gentile, all are going down.  The blood will flow. 

15
Seven angels with the 7 last plagues.
Those who are victorious over the beast standing on a sea of glass singing a new song to the lamb.
The temple seen in heaven, seven angels given seven bowls of the last judgment.  Temple fills with smoke, God's glory, and none can enter during the 7 bowls.

Second time, 2/25/20
Another "sign", not a vision.  This is symbolic of events, not a description of events.  The seven last plagues.
Those killed in the Great Tribulation so far, those who remained faithful through this terrible trial, have harps, and they alone sing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb.  The final wrath of God begins with a song.  Moses song was when?  Just before he died?  Just before the end?  And I don't know that I have seen the Song of the Lamb referred to before this verse.  

The heavenly tabernacle is opened now, and from this place come seven angels.  Surely even in heaven that sanctuary represents the place where God Himself is, and these angels are perpetually in his presence.  Doesn't Michael say that's where he is?  Perpetually in the presence of God?  So maybe these are 7 archangels, and maybe Michael himself is among them.  One of the four beasts - those who go about doing God's will as they are commanded - gives each angel a bowl containing the wrath of God.  And as this happens, smoke fills the temple, and it is off limits until these judgements are carried out.  Seems that God Himself will oversee this.

2023 - Vs 1 let's us know that John is about to relate another sign.  This is the same language he used at the beginning of Chapter 12.  That vision went on, I think now, until 14:5.  It doesn't have to take so long, but can.  I believe, now today, that these visions are in fact icons, written in words easily visualized, and that represent something like the decrees of God over time.  I think of them as "stained glass windows" depicting scenes that ought to be always on our minds.  These icons in Revelation 12 and now this one, are about "history's unfolding themes".

2022
Fourth time, 2/17/22.  I guess no new notes the third time...
Vs 1, I saw another sign.  This is very  much as Chapter 12 started, with "a great sign appeared in heaven".  I agree with the above that says what we are about to see is symbolism.
We see that we are at the very end of God's wrath against mankind.  Once these seven bowls are poured out, God's anger will be appeased.  He will not be mad anymore, and justice will have prevailed.  God's own justice.
As witnesses to what is about to happen, we have a sea of glass with fire.  We previously saw something similar here:
"and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind:" [Rev 4:6 ESV]
We are back at the throne of God, with the Lamb standing by, and the four creatures.  But now, we also have those who conquered the beast - that is those who survived t/gt.  They have harps - as did the 144,000 when they sang.  Now, in addition to their song, we have the song of Moses.  Perhaps these are the ones killed during Great Trib, perhaps mostly Jews and that is why it is the song of Moses that they sing.  An Old Testament song to introduce Old Testament wrath.  It is the Father that is seated on this throne.

2023 - SUMMARY of 1-4, This sign is an icon of God's final judgment.  We saw the history of creation and God's dealing with man in the sign that started at 12:1.  That ended with Satan thrown down and furious that his time was short.  This sign, which truly does appear to be just four verses long, is of a scene in heaven, with the final wrath, the final punishment of God, about to be poured out on the the earth.  We do not see the earth.  We see a scene in heaven.  A scene of ending.  A scene where God's dealing with man on earth, according to the way the earth was created, is about to end.  Time itself is about to end...isn't it?  Need to confirm that, but maybe that is the big thing.  You have the end of all things in an iconic picture of wrath delivered by angels, while those who endured stand and sing accompanied by harps around a sea of glass.  This is a sign and we have no obligation to "fit" this scene into the timeline.  I think this is corroborated in vs 5 when the 7 angels come out of the sanctuary and receive...those same seven angels that we saw in vs 1, but this time they are actually "doing" the wrath of God.  These in 5 are not symbols, these are in the chronology.  With this in mind, I will need to revisit the sign in 12, and see if I still agree with myself that it is LONG sign, or if it in fact concludes after vs 6 and we resume chronology there.  Oh my...Michael's war could commence right after the seventh trumpet.  In heaven, the kingdoms of the world have been taken FROM Satan and give TO Christ.  Of course there would be war!  Got to go back and redo that!

This is interesting.  I don't think we've seen this before:
"After this I looked, and the sanctuary of the tent of witness in heaven was opened," [Rev 15:5 ESV]
This is a tent.  This goes all the way back to Moses - perhaps again, the reason for his song, and the idea of OT justice about to be poured out.  God's wrath was forestalled a long time by the Law.  It was forestalled still longer by the New Covenant.  But all that is over with now, and all those remaining who have rejected God's every attempt to save them are about to receive justice.  That's why we see the tent.  This is the wrath promised to Israel when the Law was put in place.
These 7 angels come from the tent.  Remember in the last chapter we had the second reaper come out of the Temple, where the altar was.  So both Temple and Tent are in heaven...or the names are interchangeable in heaven.  I would think they were different places.
I note again, in 15:1, that the first word is "Then...".  The implication is that John sees this new sign, this second(?) sign, AFTER all the harvesting and death dealing done by the two angels at the end of 14.  So a LOT of people died at their hands, and now, still, there are the seven bowls.  The angels that come out of the tent are clothed in white, and have golden sashes around their chests.  We saw that here:
"and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." [Rev 1:13 ESV]
So these seven are dressed much as Jesus was when the book opened.  These angels are associated with the Tent, and with Christ...but not the Temple?  Because the Temple was always about God...but so was the Tent...so that's not it.  

Having some trouble here, so checked MSB.  This statement labeled 15:1-8, The bowls are the last plagues that issue from the blast of the seventh trumpet, and will conclude the seventh seal.  So MSB places the seals as sort of overlapping also.  With all the sevens playing out at the same time.  I don't think my overlap quite works like that, but it does seem to make BTN seem like MacArthur needs to do some updating...or it's been a long time since I read it.  Other than the little aside here, MSB was no help in understanding why we had the Temple in 14 and the tent in 15.  

2023 - If God is in the Tent/Temple, then these last 7 angels were in the presence of God.  I would say that Michael is one of these, and doesn't Gabriel get a little cross with Joseph over the message about Mary's child and say that he is in the presence of God?  So I would say two of the seen are Michael and Gabriel.  I would think the seven are the seven spirits of God.  We know Michael is over one dominion, now by implication we know that Gabriel is over another, and the other five, as I see it now comprise the angelic "captains" over the remaining five dominions of God's administration of the earth.

One of the four living creatures hands out the golden bowls with the seven last plagues to the seven angels who came from the Tabernacle.  Remember, that as the four horses arrived back at the first four seals, each of these four creatures told John to "Come".  This seems to be the first time any of those original four creatures has said anything since the fourth seal, though they have been present.

Once the angels have the bowls, the smoke signifying the presence of God fills the sanctuary (the sanctuary of the tent of witness, per vs 5) - NOT the Temple.  Back in 11:19, we saw the ark in the temple.  So...the Holy of Holies is where the ark resides, and this was so in both Tabernacle and Temple.  If the ark is in the Temple, why does the smoke fill the Tabernacle?  In the OT, when smoke filled the tent and the Temple, the Ark was where the smoke was.  So what am I still missing?
Hmm...kind of backing up to 14 but...Vs 6, another angel, vs 8 another angel (2), vs 9, another angel (3), vs 14, one like the son of man seated on a cloud (4), vs 15, and another angel came out of the temple (5), vs 17 Then another angel, (6), vs 18, And another angel came out (7).  So we saw 7 angels in Chapter 14, three flying overhead, one on a cloud, and three from inside the temple.  Now, Chapter 15 opens how?  Seven angels - as a sign great and amazing - with the seven last plagues.  Are the seven in 15 different than the seven in 14?  Or does the vision merely supply additional information about what we just saw, and perhaps are about to see?  
The vision is in 15:1-4.  It is a scene of the assembly in heaven.  First we see these 7 angels with the 7 plagues.  We just see them, there is no movement.  Then, the throne sitting on crystal, the conquerors from t/gt - which means the dead - and they are singing.  This is the whole "sign".  It ends after the quotation from the song of Moses.

Then in vs 5, we take up from 14:20.  The sanctuary of the tabernacle is opened in heaven.  This reads remarkably like 11:19, where God's temple in heaven was opened and the ark revealed.  In 11, the opening was followed in Chapter 12 by the sign of the woman .  In 15 it is followed by the exit from the sanctuary of the 7 angels with the 7 plagues.  So I am thinking these 7 are different angels than the 7 from Chapter 14.  It is possible that the 7 angels in 14 did come out of the Temple when it opened.  The events of chapters 12-13 include beasts, but no angels are mentioned in these two chapters.  Then we get - possibly - 7 angels in the latter part of Chapter 14 that "could" come from that Tabernacle.  Let's say these are the angels in the presence of God from the time of Solomon's Temple onwards.  Now in 15, we go back further, to the angels in God's presence - the angels over the seven dominions - during the Mosaic Covenant.  So...if the tent represents the Mosaic, doesn't Solomon's Temple also represent that?  Or does the tent represent that whole period, and the Temple is Ezekiel's Temple.  This might work...and this is the last attempt I will make at this time to decipher the tent/temple difference.  Perhaps the tabernacle represents God's covenant with Israel BEFORE Messiah came, the covenant that was abrogated, and the Temple is indeed somehow Ezekiel's temple, which is missing all the furnishings that "looked forward to" Christ, and represents the Covenant that God will have with Israel in the Millennial reign.  Or maybe - one more try - it is the Covenant with Israel historically, and then the Covenant with Abraham's seed in the Millennial.  So that makes it also the conditional covenant with Israel and the unconditional covenant with Abraham.  As the final wrath plays out, all God's promises, all his covenants are in view.  He has angels overseeing each of them.  And that is about all I can come up with on that.

Next day, as I review before starting 16, this occurs:
In 15:5 we see "the seven angels with the seven plagues" come out of the sanctuary.  As this reads, the angels ALREADY HAVE the seven plagues.  But then, one of the cherubims gives each of them a bowl "full of the wrath of God".  Those bowls do not contain the 7 plagues, but the wrath that will accompany them, intensify them.  Either that, or John is combining the sign in the first four verses with the actual events that begin in vs 5.

Why can no one go in during the last seven plagues?  These plagues reflect the full power of God in action, implementing justice on a scale never before seen, and such power in operation prohibits approach.  It is too much for ANY creature to be near, to observe, even to the greatest angels of the ages.

2023 - God has decreed and will not go back, will not repent, will not entertain prayers on behalf of the planet.  The 7 bowls WILL BE POURED out, and there is no approaching God to plead for mercy this time.  This time, it goes all the way to the end.

Chapter 16
2023 - This later inserted note:  The temple tent tabernacle represent God's relationship with Israel from the flight from Egypt to the time of Revelation.  Tabernacle/tent in the desert, Old Temple up to 70 AD.  End times Temple from Ezekiel.  Three separate places on earth.  One structure in heaven.  
2023 - This whole sanctuary, temple, tent, tabernacle thing is confusing.  In 15, we had the sanctuary of the tent of witness.  The Greek word is naos, which is used of THE temple on earth many times.  Jesus uses this word to talk about the Temple in Jerusalem.  The phrasing in Rev 15:5 is "The Temple of the tabernacle of testimony".  Three t's.  Surely this means something important.  Perhaps the idea is that this was three things on earth but they are all combined in heaven.  It is in heaven, we know that from the end of 15:5.  So I think clearly these three are just one in heaven.  Here is an interesting thing.  Temple is nominative singular masculine, tabernacle is genitive singular feminine, and testimony is genitive singular neuter.  So that covers all three.  Temple is the nominative, so it is the primary now, and tabernacle and testimony are characteristics.  Try reading it as the testimony's tabernacle's temple.  I don't know enough Greek to know if testimony is genitive to temple or tabernacle.  I don't know if a genitive can connect either to another genitive or a nominative or only to a nominative.  I am assuming it is the second here.  It is ONE place though, ONE STRUCTURE if you will as it exists in heaven, and at the very end of 15 it filled with smoke such that no one can enter it.  I think "no one" means no person, no angel, no nothing.  "No one" is a single word in Greek, and in this case might better be translated none.  None can enter.

2022 - Remember, we are right up against the very end of the 42 months.  I think weeks at most, not months, and possibly this wrath is poured out over a few hours only.  But these are condensed.  
The first verse of 16:
"Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."" [Rev 16:1 ESV]
The voice is from the Temple, not from the sanctuary.  The sanctuary is filled with smoke, because God is there.  So this voice is from other than God.  In the "sign", Christ is not mentioned - either as a man or a lamb - but this is clearly the same scene that we saw earlier when Christ was present as the Lamb, it is just later.  I see no reason to suppose that the Lamb has left the scene, so surely he is still there and not in the Temple.  BUT, if it is the Temple of the Millennial, then it could well be the voice of the Lamb saying to pour it out.  
2023 - This 2022 paragraph is wrong.  It most certainly IS God saying to pour out the bowls, because ONLY God is in that place.  It must be His voice.  

These are for all those who worshiped the beast.
First bowl-loathsome sores.
2022 - Here is the description:
"So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image." [Rev 16:2 ESV]
We ought to ask whether we can link up these bowls with the two reapers in Chapter 14?  Are we seeing in 16 an elucidation of the results of the reaping in 14, or did all that end - as we thought at the time - BEFORE the wrath begins?  Back in 14:16, it is past tense:  "the earth was reaped".  Implication is that this first angel completely finished his reaping before the second angel began.  And in 14:20, the result - past tense again - of the second angels reaping is "and blood flowed".    I can't remember if I tried to distinguish between those reaped by the first angel and then the second.  One on a cloud, one from the temple.  They seem consecutive.  Why the cloud first and then the Temple?  I note informationally that in 15 we see angels from the Tabernacle first, and then the Temple.  Are cloud and tabernacle somehow connected?  Certainly God led the Israelites through the desert as a cloud in the daytime.  So we could be seeing the two covenants again - IF the Temple in view in heaven is Ezekiel's Temple.  The Tabernacle and cloud represent those under the abrogated law, and the Temple represents the Church Age.  It cannot represent the Millennial, because the reaping is taking place before that even starts.  It is Ezekiel's Temple because Christ is missing from its furnishings.  It is heavenly, only, because it does not come down until the Millennial?  Or the earthly version is not built until the Jews are home to build it in the Millennial?
One add'l thing.  This specifically applied to those who bore the mark of the beast.  Remember that the rapture was way back there, remember that the children of the woman are being protected for 42 months.  So these sores do not affect the living breathing Jews who are now very near surviving t/gt and entering alive into the Millennial - after they are judged?

Second, sea turns to blood as of a dead man.  Everything in the sea dies.
2022 - No mention of the mark.  The sea is not longer a source of food the those who have survived to this point.  Life in salt water is extinguished.  All of it.

Third, Rivers and springs turn to blood.  Angel says it is just that they drink blood since they shed to blood of prophets.
2022 - No mention of the mark.  The 2nd and 3rd affect the earth.  No more fresh water to drink at all.  Perhaps, since the sun was darkened early in the process, crops will no longer grow on earth.  So no edible plants would grow.  In fact, pretty much all plants would have died.  The earth must be cooling significantly also with the sun down to 1/3 power.  They are freezing in the dark, surviving on fish and water.  The first three cover them with harmful painful sores, and take away the fish and water.  The dark and the cold remain.  So what happens next?

Fourth, scorching heat.  Makes men curse God, not repent.  
2022 - They have been wishing they could warm up, and now they do.  But they do not enjoy it.  It is a scorching, damaging, wounding, killing heat.  The sun is again able to warm them...and they must hide from it.  These plagues are truly wrathful.  These are punishment to fit the crime of rejecting God  in favor of a mark that they believed at the time would keep them eating and drinking, healthy, warm and dry.  The reality is just the opposite of that.

Fifth, darkness, and gnawing pain, while the sores also continue.  Looks like these stack, they are not one and done.
2022 - Perhaps this means the last of the light goes out.  Total darkness.  The beast can no longer even pretend to administrate and provide for the people with the mark.  The kingdom the beast built is in ruins, and no pretense can be made.  God is defeated it.  Undone it.
2023 - This bowl is poured out on the throne of the beast.  That may not be exactly IN the earthly temple but it would be close by.  We know that Satan's kingdom has been removed from him but somehow the beast is trying to keep it all together.  So darkness, I expect similar to that in the plague against Egypt, is poured out.  Consuming darkness.  Darkness that "eats" any light.  They can't see their hands in front of their faces and there is no light that will change that.  Terrifying darkness.  
2023- Sores, water turns to blood, darkness.  These three cover four of the bowls and connect directly with the plagues of Egypt.  The fourth bowl - a scorching sun - did not happen in Egypt.  The sixth bowl, with the water drying up, did not happen in Egypt.  The seventh bowl, an unprecedented earthquake - I should say ANOTHER unprecedented quake since we previously saw an  unprecedented in Rev, and these monster hailstones.  There was hail in Egypt, but it was burning hail, not like this.  So many of these plagues on the whole earth correspond to the plagues on Egypt alone, but not all of them do.  Some were reserved just for the time of the end.

Sixth, Euphrates dries up to prepare the way of the kings from the east.  
2022 - We saw in vs 11 that all those left on earth - I think besides the protected Jews - curse God over the wrath and refuse to repent, refuse to submit.  In the darkness, the beasts last and only strategy is to blame the hidden Jews and their God for all that is occurring, and to muster an army to fight back.  This, I believe, is building toward Armageddon.  It seems that the "Kings of the East" back the beast, and the door for them is opened by this sixth bowl.  It probably looks to the beast and those Kings as if God has finally made a tactical error, adn they rush to exploit it.
Vss 13, 14 surely seem to corroborate this, as below...

Three unclean frog spirits from the mouth of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet.  One from each.
2023 - One from the Dragon itself.  One each from beast and false prophet, both of whom I believe are men.  Men in Satan's employ and control, men to whom he "delegated" power - or in fact he possessed them and controlled them through these frogs.  
These do signs that all the world sees, and kings of the earth are gathered for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
They are gathered to Armageddon.
What are these frog spirits?  Perhaps the beast and the false prophet have been literally possessed by demons at some point.  Taken over as Judas was taken over.  But that would not apply to the dragon...Whatever they are, they are quite powerful, and their powers, their signs, their deeds are enough to convince the mortal rulers all over the world that they have "enough" to defeat God.  After all, they, like God, are supernatural, and very powerful.  You cannot expect lost kings to understand the invincibility of God.  If they did, they would have submitted before this.  These Kings, these most powerful of men, PREFER the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

2023 - Demonic spirits, and very persuasive.  Very demonstrative.  Think Darth Vader choking General what's his name.  This may be the kind of "signs" they did to "recruit" the kings of the earth.

Note also that these events portend "the great day of God the Almighty".  A single day is in view.  THE day.    Remember this, when studying, and this phrase gets used.  
And now the place of battle is named.  Armageddon comes at the end of the second 42, before the Millennial is put in place.
Hmmm...It will take some time to muster armies and move them into position at Megiddo to fight this battle.  So when I said weeks at most for these last 7 plagues, that's probably wrong.  Months seem now to be more likely  
2022 - Found these verses a few days later:
"The great day of the LORD is near, near and hastening fast; the sound of the day of the LORD is bitter; the mighty man cries aloud there." [Zep 1:14 ESV]
"A day of wrath is that day, a day of distress and anguish, a day of ruin and devastation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness," [Zep 1:15 ESV]
"a day of trumpet blast and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the lofty battlements." [Zep 1:16 ESV]

2023 - Why is verse 15 here?  
15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!") [Rev 16:15 ESV]
It is all in red, but in parentheses.  How in the world did that get passed down all the way from John?   This appears to be a quote from Jesus.  This ties back to Matthew 24, these three verses:
42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. [Mat 24:42-44 ESV].
So perhaps vs 15 is a warning to those who will still be in hiding at this time that they ought not sleep once they see the frogs begin their recruiting.  The full on second coming is about to happen.  They will likely be in the battle.  No one wants to fight naked.

The seventh bowl poured out in vs 17.  
2022 - "The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"" [Rev 16:17 ESV]
2023 - I think this too is the very voice of God.  He will send no more bowls, no more wrath.  The last of it is poured out...but its effects are not quite over.

And then for the third time (2023 - I think it is the fourth time.  I do not list below the one in 4:5 that kicks off these events.), we get this approximate verse:
"And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake." [Rev 16:18 ESV]
We saw it at 8:5 introducing the seven trumpets, which occur in the seventh seal, and are the beginning of Great Tribulation.  Then we saw it at 11:19, introducing the battle in heaven that leads to Satan's earthly kingdom, rise of the Antichrist and false prophet, and his administration of world government.  This also occurs at the beginning of Great Tribulation.  And now...what does it introduce?
Perhaps the proclamation of completion - IT IS DONE - refers to the end of the 42 months.  Satan's rule is over.  How power on earth is over.  The time for the appearance of the King of Kings is now at hand.  Maybe this is what it means.  
So the three times signal the end of Satan's power over God's chosen - he can no longer persecute the church because they are all removed TO HEAVEN, the end of Satan's time as accuser in heaven - he and his are removed FROM HEAVEN, and then the end of Satan's kingdom on the earth - he is removed FROM EARTH to the bottomless pit?  These three must be linked on many levels.  I just need to find the best description of what they mean.  
2023 - Four times we get the rumblings and the peals and the flashes.  Before the 70th begins,  at the end of the seals, at the end of the trumpets, and at the end of the bowls.

Greatest earthquake of all time, dividing the great city into three parts (2022 - Not much doubt about this city - "and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified." [Rev 11:8 ESV]) , islands and mountains just gone.  And huge hail falling.  Those receiving this punishment blaspheme God over it.  They apparently know this is all coming directly from God, yet they are defiant.

2022 - We ought to look at this verse in detail:
"The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath." [Rev 16:19 ESV]
We note from Rev 11:8 that the great city is Jerusalem.  In that verse it was equated with Sodom and Egypt.  In this verse, it is called Babylon the great.  It is Babylon/Sodom/Egypt that must receive the very last of God's wrath.  Babylon is the object of the last "swallow" of the wine of wrath.  The first bowl was those with the mark, 2,3 were directed against the earth, four was against people and earth - scorching heat, five plunged the planet into darkness, six dried up the rivers to prepare for the great battle.  And now seven laser focuses the last of God's wrath onto Jerusalem - Sodom/Egypt/Babylon.  What does this mean?  How does this play out?  Is this physically the destruction of the place we know as Jerusalem?  Or is it symbolism and vision?  Or both combined.  
We see that Jerusalem - I believe this is geographically Jerusalem as we know it - is split into three parts.  Sodom/Egypt/Babylon.  Three parts.  And that EVERY OTHER city of the nations fall.  ONLY this one is left, and it is in bad shape.  Jerusalem is "preserved" to receive the last of the wrath.  Nothing else on earth is the same.  No islands, no mountains.  
"great city" is used 8 times in 8 verses in Revelation.  We have seen two of them so far, as above.  We will see it once in Chapter 17, and the last five times are all in Rev 18.  Maybe we can figure out what it means.  BUT, at this point, I am pretty convinced that it means exactly what Rev 11:8 and 16:19 say it does.  It is literally the earthly city of Jerusalem.

Then hailstones of 100 lbs.  Why these here?  We saw them in 8:7, at the first trumpet, after the first use of "rumblings, lightning, and thunder".  We saw it first inside the 7th seal in Rev 8:5.  We saw hail next in 11:19 inside the 7th trumpet, as a part of the rumblings, lightning, and thunder.  And we see it now in Rev 16:21 as part of the 7th bowl, accompanying those same signifiers.  Yes, this signal - thunder, lightning, and rumbling - and I now add hail - is profoundly important, and I still have not unlocked its truth.   These are the only three times hail is mentioned in Revelation.  I remember it also as one of the plagues of Egypt, but I don't know if that is connected.  Sure seems to be a similar thing:
"Behold, about this time tomorrow I will cause very heavy hail to fall, such as never has been in Egypt from the day it was founded until now." [Exo 9:18 ESV].  It was the 7th plague in Exodus, the seventh seal, seventh trumpet and seventh bowl in Revelation.  Is that not interesting?  Locusts were the 8th plague on Egypt, and the fifth trumpet in Revelation.  The 9th plague in Egypt was darkness and darkness was the fifth bowl in Revelation.  
OHHHHH!  In Revelation, our phrase about rumbling, thunder and lightning, also includes hail. Each time, it occurs on the 7th - seals, trumpets, bowls.  I kept looking for it to signal the beginning of something, and couldn't make it work.  Because it signals the end.  If it is true that the 7 bowls are inside the trumpets are inside the seals, then these signs, this hail, the repeated phrase, perhaps is telling us that ALL these things conclude together in the pouring out of the last bowl, the last sip, of the wrath of God on Jerusalem.  It has all led to this one last thing God sends against the city he called his own.  Finally, I think I get it!

2023 - The earth lies shattered.  No map is accurate because the mountains are leveled and the islands have sunk.  The hail has pounded down everything above ground.  The whole earth is desolate.  And yet, the Dragon still wants this for himself, and he is still massing an army at Armageddon to fight for possession of it.  He cares not that millions will die - millions of hate-filled, God-despising men.  This is where 16 ends.


Second time, 2/25/20
Unlike the seals and the trumpets where the first four judgements were on the earth, these bowls are directed against mankind from the very first.
Hmmm...second turns all the ocean to blood, third turns all the fresh water to blood.  So man has nothing to drink.
Then this fourth, the sun gets very hot, scorching and burning people.  Again, only God can affect the sun.
At the fifth, it would seem that the actual demons inhabiting/possessing the Beast, the false prophet, and the image come forth without any further disguise.  Satan has seen that this is the end, and that he must make a last stand.  So even during the bowl judgements, with all the earth suffering and groaning under the wrath of God, Satan sends out frog-demons to press the Kings of those 10 kingdoms (maybe?) into fielding armies against the God the heaven.  Those kings, if they have the marks, and most certainly they do, know that they too are at their end, and are desperate enough to back the great deceiver yet again.

2023 POST-SCRIPT - It appears to me that every time I have read this chapter, I have tried to puzzle it out myself and come up with some things that are pretty close, and some things that are just ridiculous.  What I have DONE WRONG EVERY TIME is tried to get it myself.  That is NOT NECESSARY.  There is an angel here who tells us what this whole chapter is about beginning in vs 8.  So WHEN I EDIT THIS CHAPTER - skip down and START with the angelic explanation, and perhaps build on that, infer from that, understand from that.  But the foundation to understand this very difficult chapter is laid out for us by this angel.  THAT'S WHY HE'S THERE!  GOD KNEW WE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND THIS OTHERWISE. And I also believe we ought to see this as an icon, a picture committed to memory.  One thing that is still bugging me...how is this beast "not", but is about to rise?  That means this beast at some point was confined to the pit - need to know when - has not been active for a long time, but is about to be released again...After the Babylonian captivity, idol worship when away for the Jews, along with cult prostitutes.  They didn't fall for that any more.  Pagans still did, but we have no more stories of it infecting the Jews.  Perhaps that is when this beast was confined, and right here at the end it will be released again to corrupt as many remaining Jews as possible.  Wow...that too makes sense.

2022 - This note several days later.  This year, I felt I was really understanding this book, far more than I ever have before.  And I think my interpretation up to this chapter 17 are very solid.  But from 17 on...I just don't know.  Here is the thing.  Chapter 16 ends with the last of the wrath of God poured out.  That is an ending, and that is borne out in 16:17 with the shout of "It is done!".  So I am satisfied that I have a pretty solid understanding now of end times events, up until the end of wrath.  Then, in 17 we start all this Babylon stuff, and then we have the wedding.  All this last goes through 19:10.  Beginning in 19:11, I think we get back on the earthly chronologically unfolding event, and I kind of grasp that also.  But from 17:1 to 19:10?  I just really don't think I understand.  There is a lot of rank speculation in the notes from 17 to 19:10.

((2022 - You really can't read about Babylon in Revelation without reading about Babylon in Jeremiah 50, 51 also.  I think they are about the very same thing/time.))
2022 - This chapter is only 17 verses.

2022 - I went back and read these two chapters in Jeremiah.  They are long.  50 has 46 verses and 51 has 64.  There are many phrases there that I think we will see repeated in Revelation - almost word for word.  But here is how Jer 51 ends:
"Jeremiah wrote in a book all the disaster that should come upon Babylon, all these words that are written concerning Babylon." [Jer 51:60 ESV]
"And Jeremiah said to Seraiah: "When you come to Babylon, see that you read all these words," [Jer 51:61 ESV]
"and say, 'O LORD, you have said concerning this place that you will cut it off, so that nothing shall dwell in it, neither man nor beast, and it shall be desolate forever.'" [Jer 51:62 ESV]
So to Jeremiah, all of this prophecy was about the Babylon of his day and the things that were shortly to overtake that city.  I don't think Jeremiah had an inkling about what would come in Revelation.  So...let's assume John used the old Babylon as the prototype of this city in Revelation 17.  The "crimes" committed by ancient Babylon are the same crimes this new Babylon has committed.  Let's list some from Jeremiah:
"Therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I am bringing punishment on the king of Babylon and his land, as I punished the king of Assyria." [Jer 50:18 ESV]
""Behold, I am against you, O proud one, declares the Lord GOD of hosts, for your day has come, the time when I will punish you." [Jer 50:31 ESV]
Interestingly, Jer 50 really only gives us one reason, and we have to infer it.
What about 51?
"For Israel and Judah have not been forsaken by their God, the LORD of hosts, but the land of the Chaldeans is full of guilt against the Holy One of Israel." [Jer 51:5 ESV].  God is taking vengeance on Babylon because it abused his people.
""I will repay Babylon and all the inhabitants of Chaldea before your very eyes for all the evil that they have done in Zion, declares the LORD." [Jer 51:24 ESV].  Same as vs 50:5.  This is repayment for crimes committed.  God's vengeance.
"The violence done to me and to my kinsmen be upon Babylon," let the inhabitant of Zion say. "My blood be upon the inhabitants of Chaldea," let Jerusalem say." [Jer 51:35 ESV]  For brutality against and murder of "the inhabitants of Zion", that is, for Israel.
"Babylon must fall for the slain of Israel, just as for Babylon have fallen the slain of all the earth." [Jer 51:49 ESV].  Isn't the implication here that Israel will somehow benefit from the destruction of Babylon?  Ancient Israel was to benefit from the fall of ancient Babylon.  It is a complicated sentence...
""Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will execute judgment upon her images, and through all her land the wounded shall groan." [Jer 51:52 ESV].  For idolatry.  As in worshiping the beast and the dragon?

""Go out of the midst of her, my people! Let every one save his life from the fierce anger of the LORD!" [Jer 51:45 ESV].  This verse sort of implies that there were still Jews living in Babylon in Jeremiah's day, for whatever reason, and they are here warned to get out.  Sounds like Lot in Sodom.
So this paragraph above is sort of "prep" for reading what Revelation 17 has to say about Babylon.  

2023 - Preliminary to reading.  Back in Chapter 14, this year, I think the meaning of "Babylon" finally clicked with me.  Here is a repeat of that entry, from just up above:  We are resuming the narration from just just after the 7th trumpet.  We are fast approaching the 7 last plagues.  The end of the world, once and for all is approaching.  Three angels come by.  
The first is a final offer of the gospel to those remaining on earth, to whom surely the truth of God and his power have now been amply and indisputably demonstrated.  The winning side ought to be obvious.  So there is a chance to repent.
The second tells us that Babylon has fallen.  Hmm...In the signs, Satan and his angels have been thrown out of heaven for good.  Satan's administration as ruler of the earth is ended and Jesus is on his way to assume the throne of earth.  Might that finally be what Babylon is about?  Oh my!!!  The way the world works - capitalism, socialism, anarchism, tribalism, feudalism...ALL THESE were invented by Satan to keep us pacified but prisoners of these inherently corrupt, inherently inadequate ways of governing ourselves.  ALL these systems that keep mankind organized toward a goal aim at worldly ambitions.  It is THESE that are ending, and a theocracy is about to be put in place, because only a society organized to serve its creator can bring about the true peaceful fulfilled existence that every person craves.  Yes.  THIS is what Babylon means.  It means so many things that it is no wonder we can't figure out what it represents.  But here it is finally!!!
So I am going to go with that as the encompassing overall meaning of Babylon here in Revelation.  It is Satan's administration of earth, via human government and economic systems.  The reason so much harm can be attributed directly to both socialism and communism is that neither has the glorification of God as its aim.  Of course they lead to oppression and cruelty and government sponsored death and destruction.  We'll go with that this year as we dig into Chapter 17.


Vs 1 says that one of the seven angels with the seven bowls - so an angel from the sanctuary,  from the conditional covenant - offers to show John the judgment on the "great prostitute".  (2023 - Now disagree about the different covenant.  This is one of the seven spirits of God, continually in his presence.)  So we have to decide if this is something happening during this seventh bowl, or something that happens immediately afterward?  As the end of 16 is worded, it seems that pretty much the whole planet has been reduced to rubble, but for the three parts of the great city.  Babylon equals Jerusalem.  I think we see here that Antichrist set up his kingdom, the seat of his worldwide government in the city of Jerusalem.  If the dragon's intent was to create a parallel "image" of what God has established, he will need to do it where the temple of God was, he will have to make sure that he is worshiped in that temple, as King, and he must have his own high priest there.  With this in mind, we can see where "the time between", when Jews AND Christians were being pursued and murdered because they would not take the mark, make this city guilty of the charges in Jer.  51:5, 24, 35, 49!, and 52?  Further, as Great Trib progressed, and both Israel and converted Gentiles are pursued and hounded, we have even more of it.  
So if we start with these indictments, then what do we find to be true about the secular inhabitants of the world at that time?  They worship the beast so they can eat.  They worship so they can prosper as the world falls apart.  They enforce Satanic policy aimed at the destruction of the Jews just as so many bowed to Hitler's policies - indeed were ambitious to excel at his policies against the Jews in order to win his favor.  

So then the image of a prostitute seated on many waters...No!  We don't see this yet!  The angel tells John he will show him the judgment of this prostitute!  And he tells John about her!  This angel has some knowledge of this woman, and he takes John to see her.  What can we surmise from the information the angel gives John about something/someone that we have not yet seen?
We should recognize that water is the source of spiritual beings.  Maybe the angel knows that Satan's demons have propped up this woman, supported her?  Satanic forces are the source of it's power and coercion.  Remember the talking abomination, the fire called down, and so on.  Why the prostitute?  We are going to see this a little later.  For now, in the rest of vs 2, we see that this approach - prostitution to the demonic - has spread to all that remain alive in t/gt.  This was what Satan wanted.  He is being worshiped and served by (almost) all mankind.

2023 -SUMMARY of Vss 1,2.  The angel talks to John just after John has seen the seventh bowl poured out.  The bowl was a vision of what is to come.  The angel comes to John while he is in heaven "in the Spirit".  So we are now outside the chronology of the end times, and John is being led around in heaven somewhere.  Not physically, but in the Spirit.  He is going to go and see a judgment.  The subject is a great prostitute seated on many waters.  I believe this prostitute is another icon, another embedded understanding of how things are.  So what we have to do is unravel the symbolism in the icon.  All we know for now is that there is a prostitute seated on many waters.  In the two previous signs/icons, the pregnant woman was supported by sun and moon.  The second was a sea of glass surrounded by harpists.  Thes harpists were standing on solid ground around that sea.  Many waters?  She is perhaps the instrument of many demonic plots.  She is a prostitute because she carries out the plots - even though they degrade and shame her - for material gain.  That is all we know so far.

Vs 3 - In the spirit, carried  away.  This seems to be about a vision, not a reality.  This will all be symbolism.
And this is where I missed it on the first pass.  I was trying to make all this in 17 fit consecutively with the end of 16.  Visions do not work like that.  Initially, we don't really even know where we are in the big scheme of things.  We just have this vision.
"...I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns." [Rev 17:3 ESV]  Who/what is this beast?  We have two candidates:
First, from Rev 12:
"And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems." [Rev 12:3 ESV]  
   We know from context in 12 that this red dragon is Satan.  
   We note that he is red, not scarlet.  The Greek word for red is G4450, "pyrros".  It is the "color of fire", or "red" in Biblical usage.  The red horse of the second seal was also this color. Other than a proper name in Acts, these two instances are the only NT uses of pyrros.  
   In 17:3 the woman sits on a "scarlet" beast.  The Greek for scarlet is G2847, "kokkinos".  This word is used 6 times in the NT.  It is the color of the robe placed on Jesus.  The wool used to sprinkle blood on dedicated items was scarlet.  The remaining four are all in Rev.  In 17:3 it is the color of a beast.  In the remaining three it is the             color of clothing.  I think this clearly shows that the beast on which the woman sits is an unconfusingly  different color than the dragon.
   He is described as a dragon, not a beast.  
   The seven heads and ten horse match in 12 and 17.
   The dragon in 12 wears diadems, but the beast in 17 does not.
   

Second, from Rev 13:
"And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads." [Rev 13:1 ESV].   
   We are never told the color of the beast rising out of the sea in 13:1.  
   We know the beast in 13 is not Satan, because Satan is watching from the shore.  So this is a separate beast.  This is the demon the dragon put in charge of things after they were all expelled from heaven.  
   This beast rises from the sea, and the woman is seated on many waters.
   This beast and the one in 17 have ten horns and seven heads.
   The beast in 13 has diadems like the dragon, but the beast in 17 does not.
   The beast in 13 has blasphemous names, as does the one in 17.
   
So what is the conclusion?  We have to pick one.  
   The woman is on a scarlet beast.  Satan is red.  Not a match.
   Satan is a dragon, not a beast.  This is not Satan.  Not a match.
   The dragon is wearing diadems in 12.  The beast in 17 is not.  Not a match.
   The blasphemous names of the the beasts in 13 and 17 match up.
   The woman is on water, the beast in 13 came from water.  That matches up.
   
   All three have seven heads and ten horns, so this tells us nothing useful.
   We don't know the color of the beast in 13.  Cannot use color to decide.

   I would add one more thing.  The woman is sitting ON the beast.  She is the rider.  She is supported, transported, "served" by the beast.  I do not see Satan ever, anywhere being a servant.
   
Therefore, this woman is seated on the beast from the sea back in Rev. 13:1.  (2023 - No, not the same one, but one of equal place in Satan's hierarchy of demons.  A very powerful beast, able to roam the whole earth.)  What does this tells us?  That we were right about that beast being a powerful angel put in charge of Satan's dominions, and perhaps even setting out the strategy to usurp God.  We were right that the fallen angels of Satan were supporting the kingdom on earth of the first beast from the earth.  BUT, why is a woman now representing the first beast from the earth?  Why did the gender change?  Perhaps because we are no longer talking about the government of the earth, but about its religion? (

2023 - No...I get the impression that this scarlet beast has been around a VERY long time, perhaps since the day Satan began to roam to and fro on the earth.  The strategy of this beast, and the prostitute he pimps, have been around since the fall.  Satan has used sexual immorality to corrupt man, to divert man, to separate man from God, from the beginning.  This is what Balaam sponsored against Israel.  Hmm...in the case of Balaam, it was mixing idol worship and temple prostitutes to undermine God's rules for Israel.  Perhaps this is the main strategy, and corollary to that is the incidental use of immorality to break up families through porn and infidelity and neighbor's wives, to coerce good men to do bad things, to coerce good men to betray their countries, their fellow soldiers, their kings.  How many stories of high level betrayal through the ages include in some significant role and unprincipled female?  All of them?

Well here is something interesting...Back in 13:5, the first beast of the earth, and in 13:11, the second beast of the earth, the gender of the noun translated "beast" is neuter.  So...beasts don't have gender...but people do.  Oh my...where else do we see the second beast described?  Do we get masculine or feminine gender indication elsewhere?  The ONLY place we have any indication that the second beast from the earth is male is in this verse:
"This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666." [Rev 13:18 ESV]
There is something quite interesting here...let me rewrite it making use of the Greek genders that we have:
"This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of [it], for it is the number of a man, and [its] number is [man][man][man]." [Rev 13:18 ESV]
I sure wish I had a better understanding of Greek grammar in the late first century AD!  (hex-a-KAH-see-oy, hex-A-kunt-a, hex.  This is the Greek pronunciation for six-hundred sixty six.)

Ok, this is probably the most far-fetched thing I've come up with in this whole study of Revelation, and is virtually certain to be wrong, dependent as it is on my own culture...which is, by the way, much closer to what the culture of the end times will be than was John's culture.  Just saying.
It seems to me that since the gender of the two beasts of the earth is neutral, the gender of the two people they stand for could be either male or female.  The Greek word for beast, "therion", is gender neutral.  Really tells us almost nothing.  You can't change that.  Some beasts are angelic/demonic, and some beasts are people, so John came up with a way of telling us the origin of each beast -sea or earth - so we could distinguish between angels and people.  Very ingenious.  So how could he also come up with a way to tell us what sex they were - IF they were not both male?  We always assume that they are both male.  What if the False prophet is female?  That's why she is a woman on a scarlet dragon.  Because the second beast from the earth, appointed by the first beast as head of the Satanic church, is a woman.  
If we continue with that idea, does anything fall into place besides why the rider of the beast from the sea is female?  Well...yeah.  Explains why she's described as a prostitute.  Kings (masculine) have committed sexual immorality with her.  "Her" name is "Babylon the great mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations".  Quite a name.  
Umm......also, I have heard John MacArthur discuss at length that the advancement of "Mary" worship by the Catholic church is a Satanic strategy.  The Temple of Diana comes to mind with it's temple prostitutes.  And...why wouldn't the Antichrist set up a cult religion that included sex and orgy and immorality for all as part of the "draw" when inviting the remaining people of earth to worship the Antichrist!?!?!?!  Of course he would!  THAT is who this is!  It is for using this same strategy that Balaam is vilified in both Old Testament and New!  He polluted the Mosaic covenant by introducing something else very similar, having similar rituals and sacrifices, BUT ALSO OFFERING FREE SEX!!!  
I'm thinking this idea is not so very far off the mark at all.  This is what the female pope, the second beast from the sea, set up as the world religion.  An old strategy and supremely effective as it has always been at manipulating mankind.  Truly addictive religion.  And with the last of his wrath, it is THIS strategy that God will wipe out forever.  So...one more twist.  The number.  You have to be wise to understand.  You have to understand that this beast, who set up all this sex and immorality, isn't really a woman at all.  He just looks like one.  And that number of his, somehow, will give the truth away.

So that's my new theory.  Now we will see what the angel interprets from the scene.  We "think" at this point that we know who the beast is.  The first beast from the sea.  But we don't know "when" this is.

2023 SUMMARY of vss 3-6a - Therefore, the beast she is mounted on is not Satan.  This beast us much like the beast in Chapter 13.  It had diadems, but also had the blasphemous names.  That beast was "less" than the dragon but served the dragon.  The seven heads and 10 horns tell us that beast had cross-dominion authority.  So does this scarlet beast.  It is demonic.  It is VERY powerful.  It serves Satan.  This prostitute does what she does across the whole planet and at the bidding of this scarlet beast.  Additionally...I am not feeling all too good about the paragraph above with women in charge of religion.  I think it is much better interpretation to see this as a third iconic sign to embed in us all that immorality in all its forms is a tool used by Satan on earth to undermine our loyalty to God and to separate us from his ways.

It starts with this verse:
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come." [Rev 17:8 ESV]
The bottomless pit was opened back at the fifth trumpet.  The locusts were the first ones out.  So this beast would have been still in the bottomless pit at the opening of the sixth seal, and the rapture, because when those happen, the abomination is where it ought not to be.  We know from Rev 13:1 that the beast we saw there preceded the appearance of the abomination.  So this pretty solidly eliminates that beast in 13:1 from being the beast upon which the woman sits.  All that work was a waste.  This is a previously unseen beast.  
However, we have now seen this 7 heads and 10 horns thing three times.  The dragon.  The beast from the sea.  And now the beast from the pit.  Satan has two generals.  The general in 13:1 was the general over civil matters.  He set up the first beast from the earth, and the false prophet.  He consolidated world government using these.  Perhaps.  Then we see this next....

Another beast, but not THE dragon.  If he was in the pit, he is not a man, he is a demonic angel.  But...the pit was opened on the 5th trump.  This demon, according to the angel, tells John that the scarlet beast is still in the pit.  He has not come up yet.  So this tells us that we are at some time AFTER the fifth trumpet when John sees this vision.  This makes sense, because of the word "then" in 17:1.  John is seeing this vision - this symbolism - after the hailstones, when only Jerusalem is left.  Jerusalem is Babylon, and before it is actually destroyed, John is getting more information in symbolism from this angel.  John actually sees this prostitute himself in 17:6.  And in vs 8, the real beast -  not the one in the vision - "is about to rise from the bottomless pit".  So we are at the very end.  Babylon must still be destroyed, but this beast is not yet on the scene.  He is going to show up, and be almost immediately destroyed.  Look more closely at the very long vs 8:
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come." [Rev 17:8 ESV]
This seems to indicate that this beast will be recognized when he appears.  He has been here before, but either he left, he was run off, or he was vanquished.  But unsaved people still holding on at the end of Great Tribulation are amazed that he is "back".

In vs 9 we get this phrase again:   
"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;" [Rev 17:9 ESV]  Compare with this earlier version, that we have been discussing:
"This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666." [Rev 13:18 ESV]
So we ought to be as mystified about the seven heads being seven mountains as we are about 666!  They are at the same level of importance and mystery.  These are two hard things.

It seems pretty easy to figure out the seven mountains are the seven hills of Rome.  But there is more to it than that simple explanation...because we get this ALSO:
"they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while." [Rev 17:10 ESV].
So yeah, this makes it a bit more complicated.  The wording says the heads are hills, and also a chronological "hall of kings".  Five kings have already come.  One is in place.  One is yet to come for a very short time.  
And...we know that there is a beast in the pit who's been here before that is "also" yet to come.  Are are they the same?

So...the one who has not yet come might be this one that is still in the pit that we've been talking about, who has also been here before.  If so, then the kings are demonic angels over the angels of the seven dominions - like the beast in 13:1, who may very well be the one "who now is" in this story, and the one in the pit is still to come.  Here is another idea though.  Perhaps all these demonic kings were in place when the seven last plagues began.  As the battle has progressed, five have fallen, one is still in place.  That's just six.  So what about the seventh?  What's going on there is this is about the seven dominions, what is going on in the seventh?  I can see where one who had fallen might come back and re-occupy one of the dominions but how does that make him an eighth when we don't know what's going on in the seventh.  Unless, as with the 10 horns, where 3 break down, and a new one comes up...10-3 is 7 that have suffered no loss.  But that little horn that comes up rules over all of the seven.  That makes him an eight, though he was never one of the seven.  But you have to start with 10 to make this work.  Still, if the demonic is organized like the worldly, then while Antichrist is in power, there are 8 nations on earth.  

I just do not know.  And I'm taking too much time.  This is the first chapter that I just haven't been able to make any sense of.  Maybe I will get it the next time through.  Not giving up, but I am speeding up, and I am not going to try and stretch so far for the rest of the chapter.

And now this one...but I am going to copy down the verse above that I believe goes with it:
seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while., vs 10.
"As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction." [Rev 17:11 ESV]
So the beast still in the pit is an eighth - but belongs to the seven.  So it is a king - a demonic king.  So the previous seven have also been demonic kings.  This beast in the pit has previously been out of the pit.  So...the beast in the pit has two spots in this line up of kings.  It was here before, and then it wasn't here - so one of the seven, and by inference it is one of the first five, because it isn't the one in charge "now", and it won't be the seventh.  If was the seventh, there wouldn't be 8 total.  It says he is "an eighth".  
Same kind of thing.  I don't understand this.  
Seven heads = seven hills = seven kings = seven dominions.  All in the spiritual world.  Perhaps the seven hills are the seven "regional" capitals of the seven "nations" of earth that correspond to the seven spiritual dominions.  Perhaps the "demon" over each one resides in that capital.  Those capitals have all just been wiped out, but for one - the one in Jerusalem is still there.  One of the seven was ruled by an underling, a vassal, just holding the spot for the beast still confined in the pit.  He couldn't take his spot at first, he was locked up.  So the one in charge of the seventh, wasn't really a king.  He was a viceroy, a regent.  That's why he is not mentioned.  So there were seven, but one was not really, and the true seventh - who is an eighth because he was not one of those seven - is still to come.  Holy cow.  That works!  And people are amazed at the eighth, because he is very powerful - more powerful than the five who had fallen, more powerful than his regent.  They didn't know there were any more like him - like the one in charge at Jerusalem, who is the one in 13:1.  AND, in 17:3 it the prostitute was in the wilderness, because the seven dominions of Satan were wrecked at this time.  I believe that ties up pretty nicely for the spiritual aspects of what is going on here at the pouring out of the last bowl.  And when this eight demon shows up, he won't be around long, because the last of God's wrath is headed his way, and the 42 months are about done.  Jesus is about ready to show up and take it all over.  

What comes in 12:
"And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast." [Rev 17:12 ESV]
These ten kings would seem to be the earthly kings, adn when the beast supporting the prostitute receives power, he will somehow "promote" these 10 earthly kings to royal power.  The ten new kings are needed because the bowls likely wiped out the previous 10 that had served to that time.  They are likely quite unqualified and scared to death.  
Next verse, 13, confirms this.  These 10 are just figureheads, who "draft" all they can find to fill the ranks of the last ditch army to fight against Jesus himself.  They supply the fodder actually ruled over by the last two beasts.

Vss 15-18
The water back in vs 1 represented all the people and organization left in the world at that time.
I am worn out, so just taking one run at this:
As he bowls have been poured out, the demons, and the Antichrist, have colluded in blaming the world religion for failing them in their time of need.  They burn churches, murder priests, run them out of town to fend for themselves.  These ten last kings have turned over all their power to the beasts, so that the last battle is actually a spiritual battle, between Jesus at his coming, and all the rabble that Satan can muster after God's wrath has devastated all of earth but the seat of the beast from the sea, and the beast from the pit.
The woman is the great city - that is, she is Egypt, Sodom, and Babylon...and she is Jerusalem.  The last city, the refuge of the false prophet, of false religion, of "Balaam's Way".  

Looking ahead, Chapter 18 is about the fall of Babylon.  If I am even a little bit right, this is chronologically what we would expect.  The last hold-out bastion of the rebellious - both man and demon - is in Babylon, and it is now time for that to fall.  The last of the seventh bowl, the end of the wrath of God, after which the earth will be a leveled cinder of a planet, unable to support life, dark, smoky, and dead.




Previous notes:
(For when I get to 17.  The prostitute represents the perverted combination of immorality with religion, a potent attractant.  An addiction quite possibly.  This sort of thing was far more prevalent in the time of John than now.  In fact, it goes all the way back to Balaam and his strategy for undermining Israel.  It was done by immoral rites practiced as part of worshiping idols and false gods.  In John's time, there were temple prostitutes, temple orgies, and even philosophy such as dualism was used to "dignify" immorality by saying things the filthy corrupt body did had no bearing at all on the spirit.  What do we have today that compares?  Does anyone at all do this sort of thing in the name of religion any more?  There was that Indian guy out in CA, where almost all his followers got VD because the sex was so rampant.  Manson used it.  It's still around.  But for some reason, in Great Trib, the bad guys themselves will combine to wipe it out.  Could be that this is a new religion that is going to rise up, but we haven't really seen it yet.)))
An aside about the judgement of the great harlot.  Portrayed as a woman in the wilderness sitting on a scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns.  She is Mystery, Babylon the great and is drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.  This is the personified hatred of the authority of God and all who follow him.
The beast she sits on is the beast who was, and is not, and yet is.
The beasts seven heads are seven mountains.  There are seven kings, five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come, and will continue a short time.
The beast itself is the eighth, and is of the seven.
The ten horns are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but will receive it one hour as kings with the beast.
They will make war with the Lamb, and will lose.
The water where the harlot sits are the nations and peoples.  The ten horns will hate the harlot, and attack her and burn her and eat her flesh.   They will do this because God will put into their hearts to fulfill His purpose.  I guess this is a final example of His being in control of all things, that he makes them turn on their whore.
She is the great city who reigns over the kings of the earth.  I don't get this.  Literal city?  Or the craving for power?  The craving to be as God?

Second time, 2/25/20
I  think I know what this represents now.  A woman, but she has the 7 and 10.  This is Satan's rule over the earth, through corrupt men and governments.
Mother of prostitutes - analogy in this case.  Men who corrupt themselves in the name of personal gain and ambition prostitute themselves to the ruler of this world.  They take his abuse, they agree to do those things that please him for their own selfish gain.

This verse:
15 And the angel said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. [Rev 17:15 ESV]
Surely this is an image of the governments of mankind.  Then it says the beast and the 10 horns will hate the prostitute - they will hate the governments of man, and they will destroy them.  They will ruin the earth.  God has made it so. 

CHAPTER 18
2023 - Vs 1 starts with "after this".  The angel has just shown the judgment of the great prostitute, and explained to him all the symbols.  So this was another icon of what is to come.  It is "sign" and "vision".  It is a stained glass window to remind us of the ultimate end of devoting our lives to what the scarlet beast and the prostitute are all about.  So.  AFTER this explanation, another angel.  This seems to be moving us from that iconography back into the narration.

2022 - In my ESV, the majority of this chapter is in "prose format".  There are stanzas, with sort of an introduction before each of the...7 stanzas.  That there are 7 should be no surprise at this point.  Whether the 7 are significant or are instead man made divisions, we will see as we read.  I further note that in the NASB, we do not see this format.  But I do think it notable that this chapter has a different kind of construction than those that came before.

2022 - In 18:1, "another angel" - perhaps the single most powerful angel that we have yet seen, and with great authority - so surely from the very presence of God - comes down from heaven and makes an announcement.  This angel is so nearly perfect that he is giving off his own bright light, bright enough to light not just his immediate surroundings but "the earth was made bright".  Remember, the sun's brightness and the moon's have been greatly reduced.  So this angel lights the world.  His announcement is set off in prose format.

Another angel declares that Babylon is fallen.  She is to be paid back double for all her sins.  
2022 - Where did "double" come from?  I do not see it in either ESV or NASB, at least not the word double.  So why did I put it here?  It does say "Fallen, fallen...but if prose, just a device perhaps, or it just might be emphasizing the extent of Babylon's destruction.  The Greek word for fallen is "pipto".  The word appears twice.  So it is not constructed as "She is double fallen..."  I probably interpreted it this way because of the double punishment of the Jews.  God is just, and it would seem just for the wrath to be double during these last days. BUT, the word is NOT here.   Check that!  Double is mentioned in s 6, and I think balances the double punishment of Israel with the double punishment of the rest of the world in the end times!
We get a word picture of those taking refuge in this last city on earth.  Demons, unclean spirits, unclean birds and beasts.  It seems strange to me that birds and animals would be inside the city, unless they are brought in for food.  Even angels/demons have to eat.  Since the law was abrogated by Christ, all food is acceptable to the saved...but the church left a long time ago, and I believe it is almost exclusively Jews that make up those saved and preserved during t/gt.  Or perhaps this is just John's way of describing that anything that might be food has been brought into the city.
I think we also need to see that "fallen", though it looks "past tense" to us, is actually in the aorist tense,which English does not have.  The aorist means that there is no attempt to assign this action as past present or future.  Sort of a "was, is, and/or will be" fallen.  Point is, it does not mean that as the announcement is made, the city is already leveled and gone.   
2023 - I believe the above is wrong.  Babylon is a dwelling place for all these demons because it is fallen, desolate, wiped out.  It is no longer the splendorous city but a haunt of demons where no man wants to go.  If the chronology is resuming, remember that the 7th bowl has just been poured out, and it has devastated all the "civilization" of man, it has wiped out the last of the constructions for the administration of power and control that Satan had put in place here.  Including all that Babylon stood for.

2022 - Vs 3:
"For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."" [Rev 18:3 ESV]
The reason for the fall is announced.  Here, again, I think we are seeing that Babylon is symbolic of the "way of Balaam", of a religious strategy that uses immorality and the basest aspects of desire to attract its devotees, to separate them from their money, and to enrich those in authority within the church.  

2023 - Much as I hate to say it, this sounds very much like Epstein's island, doesn't it?  The richest, most powerful men and women in the world went out there to a place where there was no law at all, and there they indulged in the basest conduct they could imagine.  With no repercussions, shoulder to shoulder with others there for the same things.  That island was a good example of the Babylon we are discussing here.  For all we know, they had their own Satanic rituals while they were there, thinking to enhance their personal power and presence.  You know, that shouldn't be any surprise at all in light of this verse!  Lavayne may have this right after all.  It is just so horrendous that the "best" of men would be the "lowest" of men.  It just refuses to be credible.

Priests and wealthy men working together to pull as much money as they can in offerings from those who have so very much less than themselves.  To be blunt, the Catholics pull money from dirt poor subsistence farmers the world over to support the Vatican, and the trappings of religious power that characterize cardinals and popes.  The Catholic church does not promote the abuse of women, but it elevates one woman as the mediator of prayers offered to God.  She decides what he will hear.  Islam offers uncountable virgins in heaven for those who are loyal, and allows much immorality while its devotees are on earth.  Rape during war is specifically allowed in the Quran.  Wouldn't that entice men to WANT to go to war?  Mormons allow polygamy to bring in those who crave power and possession and immorality.  Mixing sex and religion is a potent combination.  I think this is what Babylon is about in these last day references.  And in this case, since Jerusalem was the home base of the Antichrist, this is where the remaining pilgrims are concentrated.

2023 - I did not remember that I had written these things down.  I don't remember that I even put these together before.  I thought yesterday when it hit me that it was the first time.  This ought not be forgotten.  This Balaam inspired Babylon is here with us now, thriving, as it always has.  That beast yesterday that was and is not and is coming again for a sort time...that demon will take this to a level not seen in thousands of years.  But he will win over many, and send them to their deaths at Armageddon in their lust for more of the same.

2022 - Then the second stanza is introduced by another angel in vs 4.  (2023 - just says "voice".  Probably an angel, but it does not say angel.)  We see here in vss 4, 5 that there are some people of God still in the city also.  They are warned by a "voice from heaven" - it doesn't specifically say angel this time - to get out of the city.  If we consider the actual events, the widespread destruction that has been going on in the world during the bowl judgments, then anyone would run into the last city standing on the planet.  But that is going to be about the worse place you could be in just a "few minutes", so get out.
Here is vs 6, and the double punishment:
"Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed." [Rev 18:6 ESV]
Seems to be little doubt that the punishment will equal twice the crime.  Not only is there no mercy in what is about to happen, there is double severity.  There are both people and demons in this city, and I suspect the punishment will be appropriate for all those who decide they would rather be faithful to Babylon than submit to the true God.

2023 - I think we have to see vss 4-8 as looking back to the 7th bowl.  If this is back on chronology, these vss are a bit of a lament for fallen Babylon, even though it is expressed in English in present tense.  Did a quick check and all the verbs in vs 6 are aorist.  So that disconnects us from a specific time.  The aorist is most often expressed as past tense in English.  In this case, it sort of fits that it IS past tense, but the aorist sort of keeps us in "vision" language also.

2023 - If 70 AD was the "second portion" of Jerusalem's double punishment, then perhaps this fall of Babylon - which may indeed be Jerusalem - is the second portion of the fall of the Gentiles.  We had 2000 years - so far - with no requirement but faith in God, and look at the mess we've made.  Why would we expect a lesser punishment than Israel?  So here, after the 7th bowl - or perhaps before since it is aorist tense - those who have survived the devastation of whole planet, since Gentiles inhabit the whole planet, it ends with the destruction of the city of Babylon.   Here, all the "greatest men and women", those able by wealth and power to insulate themselves from much of what has happened, are concentrated and confined, and contained, and here they will die with the city that supported them.

2022 - Then this verse:
Note that the first stanza ended with vs 3 with the reason for what was coming.  Now this stanza ends the same way:
"For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her."" [Rev 18:8 ESV]
Like Sodom went down in a single day.  Sodom went with fire.  Consumed in a day.

2022 - Vss 9,10 seem to tells us of the effect this destruction in a day will have on those still hiding out in other places on the planet, who realize that the religious/economic system that enriched them during t/gt has come to a complete end.
"They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."" [Rev 18:10 ESV]
Compare this prophetic verse from Isaiah:
"And behold, here come riders, horsemen in pairs!" And he answered, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon; and all the carved images of her gods he has shattered to the ground."" [Isa 21:9 ESV]
These OT quotes now begin to come faster and faster.  I think John is telling us that what is happening was prophesied even the OT, and that we can fill in even more details about the end times by "connecting" these OT passages with Revelation.

Merchants will morn.  This is the end of commerce for profit, of the greed that makes men rich, of the compromises that men will make in order to be rich.  Trade will no longer be a thing because nothing has value anymore in the face of these torments?
The fall of Babylon is final.  It will never be inhabited again.  The language is that nothing joyous, nothing productive, no commerce will ever be here again.  

2022 - We have this one verse stanza, a poem really, saying that what is now lost will never come again.  Neither MSB or TCR reference this little poem as a quote from elsewhere in the Bible.  It is only here.

2022 - The stanza of Vss 15-17a are the "words" of the merchants as they realize that what has just gone will never come again.

2022 - Vss 19, 20, More mourning by those who were enriched by the corruption of Babylon.

2022 - The last stanza is introduced in vs 21, with a visual sign.  A mighty angel throws a huge stone into the sea, and compares that to the fall of Babylon.  The prose of vss 21b-24 describe a world without a Babylon.

And it says that in her was found the blood of the prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.  This sounds like Babylon is the root of all evil that ever occurred.  It is the motivator of killings, of greed, of hatred of God, and so on.  She kills and destroys in any possible way because she hates righteousness, and will substitute all material things, and political power, and indeed any sort of power, for righteousness, and make men believe that they are doing right by giving anything and everything to obtain it.  They disdain family, love, honor, morality (abortion!), intelligence, knowledge (they know socialism won't work), in order to gain the power to make themselves gods.
JM's book on revelation says Babylon is the social and economic system set up by Anti-Christ during that last 3.5 years.

So here is our dilemma, after this last stanza, saying that Babylon will be no more.  We have shown, I believe convincingly, that Babylon is Jerusalem.  It has been absolutely, finally, and for all time wiped off the face of the earth.  So...from where will Christ rule the Millennial Kingdom?  Where will we find his throne and his Temple?  It may be that we have to backtrack some...but we won't do that just yet.  Perhaps it means that the things that were built on this religion, this corrupt economic system, the joy and celebration and busy commerce based on that system, will never come again, because Antichrist and the Satanic world government and world religion are wiped out with the last bowl judgment.  But a new, pure, just Jerusalem will rise to replace forever the Babylon set up by Satan.  We'll just have to keep reading and see.

2023 SUMMARY OF 18 - With the pouring out of the 7th bowl, the earth, and all the infrastructure that organized and motivated worldly men - kings, merchants, traders - comes to an end.  No more favors from governors.  No more false scales for selling goods, no more buy low where it's common and sell high where it's rare.  All these things are the trappings of earthly power and earthly wealth production/accumulation.  These are the things that led inevitably and always to oppression of the poor by the rich, and the pretense of just government.  Satan though, is the one that invented all these things.  Israel was to circumvent all that with a theocracy ruled by priests and the consciences of devout men bringing sacrifices to the God of the universe, rather than the taxes to the King for all they had accumulated.  This is the contrast.  These that weep from far off have just seen all that they "worshiped" destroyed in an instant at the last bowl.  Nothing is left.  No trade routes to control, no king to bribe, no ships to sail.  The judgment of Babylon that we saw in 17 is therefore corroborated as another icon, and 18 is a reminder that if our treasure is in earthly things, the end of that is weeping and mourning, because THAT will all pass away. 

19
Chapters 17 and 18 have already talked at length about the fall of Babylon, but it continues into 19.  This verse starts with "after this".  That would seem to refer back to the last thing in 18.  The last verse there was about the blood of the prophets, the saints, and all who have been murdered being found in Babylon.
We begin 19 with a shout, as from a LOT of people, coming from heaven and thanking God for destroying Babylon, and that she will never rise again.  Then the 24 elders and the four living creatures fall down and worship God.  There is an Amen.  
BTN reminds me that while Babylon was the "world system", it also represents the 10 nation kingdom of Antichrist.  It says this too is destroyed in chapters 17, 18 because it was built on that system.  This is the end of man's dominion in government, and the beginning of Christ's direct rule.  

2022 - This verse:
"for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants."" [Rev 19:2 ESV]
Does this still work with our conclusion that Babylon is the corruption/combination of immoral sex with religious belief?  I don't think this is just about capitalism.  I don't think the Bible - and especially the NT - condemn rich men just for being rich.  So why would Babylon be the world economic system unless there was something ELSE about the way it was conducted that made it vile?  But a religious system who's only goal is to enrich those who belong to it?  A religious system that uses free sex as a recruiting inducement?  And then that religion fleeces all its adherents for everything they have, enriching the "founders" and making paupers of the members?  How often have we seen this?  I was thinking more about Catholicism.  It doesn't really use sex in this way, but it does elevate Mary beyond the status the Bible gives her.  It pretty much deifies her.  But it also preaches that a person can do just pretty much all he wants to do all week long, and then pay the priest to pray it away in confession.  Join this religion that puts Mary practically in the Trinity, offer all your prayers to her (Hail Mary's) instead of God, and then PAY OUR PRIESTS to remit your sins.  Still a pretty corrupt version of the gospel as I see it.

2022 - Vs 1 began the chapter with the "loud voice of a great multitude in heaven".  As 18 ended we were looking at a millstone thrown in the water and heard an epitaph of Babylon  So we are no longer looking at earthly events but at the response to those events as they are celebrated in heaven.  In vs 4, we have "Amen, Hallelujah! because Babylon and all it stood for - whatever that was - is gone forever.  
2022 - So then vs 5, there is a sort of "encouragement" to those celebrating the end of Babylon.  
2022 - Then we move on to vs 6.  This verse is reminiscent of vs 1.  Many voices, and this time we get some detail about the sound.  the roar of many waters, and/or peals of thunder.  The first word John heard shouted in vs 1 was "Hallelujah!".  Likewise here in vs 6.  Vs 1 was a celebratory shout that Babylon was gone, vs 6 is a celebratory shout that God reigns, and the time for the marriage of the Lamb has come.  So a lot of questions come up here, and it would help to have the verses:
"...Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.  
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"
-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints." [Rev 19:6b-8 ESV]

First, God reigned before Babylon fell.  So this ought to be seen as a praise - which was recommended back in vs 5...maybe vs 5 ought to be down here with 6...
There is a period after "reigns", but I don't know that Greek has periods.  BUT, I went and looked at the Greek, in the order it is written, and the sentence ending "reigns" above certainly seems like a complete sentence, and so a period seems appropriate at that point.  Let's stick with that.
The next phrase is to rejoice and give him (God) the glory BECAUSE...it is time for the marriage and the Bride has made ready.  
I think the implication is that there couldn't be a marriage until God said it was time, just as the rapture could not occur until God said it was time.  Hmm...the rapture is where the bride was gathered from earth to meet Jesus in the air.  God determined that day, and now he determines the wedding day of the Lamb.  Makes sense that he would.

The bride bride "was granted" approval to wear fine linen.  So...that almost seems as if she really had not earned it.  We recently saw that linen is plant based, light, and comfortably as contrasted with wool.  The word is only used 19 times in the NT.  Several of those are references to the shroud that wrapped Jesus' body when he was taken off the cross.  Lazarus was also wrapped in linen.   Linen is mentioned in all four gospels, and then not again until Rev 15:6.  The angels that came out of the sanctuary with the last plagues wore "pure, bright, linen".  Babylon was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, and many jewels.  So...linen is used to wrap the dead, and to clothe those of high rank.  Those angels were in the sanctuary.  The presence of God.  Pretty highly ranked angels.  Babylon, though corrupt, was rich beyond imagination.  And now, for the wedding, the church is granted permission to wear bright, pure linen.  Aaron and the priests wore linen garments.  The high priest.  The rich man, in "the rich man and Lazarus", was clothed in fine linen.
Perhaps the explanation is in 8b..."for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints".  A reward to the church?

Then this verse:
"And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."" [Rev 19:9 ESV]
Who then, is invited?  Christ is the groom, the church is the bride.  Who is coming to the celebratory supper?  Some that are not yet present?  There are some BTN notes in the "Previous notes..." below about this.  MacArthur says the guests are the OT saints.  If that is who this is about, if these are the guests, and they are already present, then they were raptured with the church, or they were "brought over" from Old Testament Holding sometime before these verses.  I don't know how we would know that.  I am very convinced that only those "in Christ" will be raptured.  ONLY the church will be raptured. The OT saints will, I believe, remain where they are and their bodies will not be resurrected, until just before the GWT.  
So.  If it is pre-Pentecost saints who are the guests at the wedding, then bride is dressed and ready, but there is as yet no wedding.  In fact, if those are the guests, the wedding is, in my opinion, still a thousand years away.  That's a long time to stay dressed in glowing linen!  But until I see something to tell me different, that's what I'm going to say is going on.  
I wonder, in the Jewish tradition of John's day, how long the bride stays dressed?  Did it vary, or was it set?

That last line of vs 10 is also a problem.  MSB just glosses over it with some big hand waving comment:
"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [Rev 19:10 ESV]
Why did John feel obligated to worship this messenger?  John offers this phrase almost as an explanation for why he worshiped this angel.  
Hmm...the Greek in vs 9 says "kai lego ego".  And "said" to me.  "Angelos" is not there.  Does not say this was an angel.   Perhaps John phrases it this way to excuse his mistake in worshiping the one talking.  Perhaps John words it this way because he believed at the time that he was talking to Jesus.  I don't even see a gender for this sentence.  Lego is a verb, it has no gender.  "He" seems to be implied...but from where????  Could be that when translating this phrase, the translators must "supply" something.  In English, we do not say "And said to me "Write this...".  English needs a noun or pronoun in there.  "And Jim said to me..." or "she" or "he" or even "it".  But English requires something there, and Greek DOES NOT.  The lack of a specific pronoun or other identifier probably means that John just did not know for sure who was speaking to him.  The translators have "interpreted" that since the speaker would not allow John to worship him, it must have been an angel, so THAT is the word they supplied.  Wow.  I went a long way for something that is probably not all that critical!

"For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy".  Did all that about Greek into English help at all?  No, not really.  Almost all translations - all except the ones that are interpretations through and through - have this phrase exactly the same.  There is another definite article in there...you could read it the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.  A specific prophecy is maybe in mind.  Hahaha!  The prophecy said:
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." [Jhn 14:18 ESV]  The spirit of the prophecy is the Holy Spirit.  Jesus testified that he would send the Holy Spirit.  The one speaking was witness to the fact that the words he was speaking were the true words of God.  The one speaking says, essentially, "I heard God speak these words", or I KNOW that these are God's own words that I have just repeated to you.  So perhaps, and this I think may really be it, John believed he was speaking expressly to the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, and so to God Himself.  
The last time an angel "introduced himself" to John was back in 17:1 when all this began after the last bowl was poured out.  The angel in 17:1 is one of the seven who came from the sanctuary in heaven, which was immediately afterward filled with the smoke of God's presence.  So this angel did indeed, at least sometimes, stand in the presence of God.  There were several angels in 18, but none seem to have come near John.  

Previous notes...Vss 9, 10
BTN also notes that it is the guests at the wedding who are blessed, and this is not referring to the bride - the church.  Who are the guests then?  The guests are all those saved before Pentecost (if Pentecost is where you mark the beginning of the church), all the way back to Adam.  Because the church - and those Gentiles saved in the church age, are the Bride.  So Israel will be among the guests, while Gentiles will be the bride.  

BTN expands and notes that the church is pure and faithful.  She never has played the harlot as Israel did.  That is why Israel cannot be the bride.  Also in attendance will be those who came through Trib and Great Trib alive - still in physical bodies.  He says the church is in heaven for the meal that culminates the marriage of Christ to the church, and then she goes to earth with him, to reign with him in the Millennial Kingdom.  This is how Gentiles are included in the Millennial.  I thought only pre-church believers would be there on earth because the church would be in heaven.  The church comes back.  

2022 -
Verse 11:
"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war." [Rev 19:11 ESV]
John has "looked into heaven" several times before.  That's where this horse and rider are located.  IN HEAVEN.  The rider is called "The Word of God".  This can only be Jesus.  We saw him as groom earlier in the chapter, now we see him in his glory as conquering king.  He is about to return and claim his kingdom.
This verse:
"And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses." [Rev 19:14 ESV]
This linen is very similar to what the bride was wearing.  It would seem very likely that the church is part of the army.  We know the church was allowed to wear "fine linen, bright and pure".  We need a really good reason to say this isn't the church as at least a part of Christ's army.  Jesus is portrayed as a fierce warrior, and a ruler who will tolerate no deviation from his commands.  
We need to remember that those three unclean spirits like frogs went out back in 16:13 to convince the Kings of the east to come and fight.  Here is a pertinent verse from that chapter:
"For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty." [Rev 16:14 ESV]
"And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon." [Rev 16:16 ESV]
So we seem to be taking up this part of the narrative from somewhere in 16.  After they assembled at Armageddon, the seventh bowl is poured out and then we get into all that Babylon stuff, which continues into the first part of 19, then we get the bride adorned - but no real wedding supper nor wedding specifically takes place.  Then we see Jesus, and the bride, still dressed, in heaven.  Has the wedding happened...or is it on hold until later?

We really have to look at these two verses:
"Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God," [Rev 19:17 ESV]
"to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."" [Rev 19:18 ESV]
Surely this supper is not the marriage supper?  This is called the great supper of God, that was called the marriage supper of the Lamb.  Hmm.  Could they be the same?  Oh my!  Area all these birds the guests?  NO!  That's not right!  Perhaps though, the guests are the armies assembled with Christ for this battle.  I mean the bride is there, but surely she is not the whole army.  There are angels, we know.  If the OT saints did resurrect at the rapture, they are all here, and they are surely guests for this supper?  But I don't think they are there...no...I don't think they were raptured.  I think if they are here, as guests for this supper, then it is because they were moved from the bosom of Abraham, where Lazarus of Lazarus and the rich man was, when the two of them had that fateful conversation.  Abraham was an OT saint too.  That is where HE was until Christ finished his work and then once all sin - especially deliberate knowing sin - was covered by the blood of Christ, then and only then, could the OT saints enter heaven.  But...that still does not leave them a resurrection.  The only resurrection that is still future at this point of which I am aware is here:
"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended..." [Rev 20:5 ESV].  That's a resurrection.  It just says "the rest of the dead", though.  We will get to that passage tomorrow and perhaps make more of it.

Look at the next verse, this phrase; "...the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great..."  That is part of the "menu" for the birds.  The flesh of all men is included. These verses I "just happened to read this morning"!  I just have to paste them all:
"A day of wrath is that day, a day of distress and anguish, a day of ruin and devastation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness," [Zep 1:15 ESV]
"a day of trumpet blast and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the lofty battlements." [Zep 1:16 ESV]
"I will bring distress on mankind, so that they shall walk like the blind, because they have sinned against the LORD; their blood shall be poured out like dust, and their flesh like dung." [Zep 1:17 ESV]
"Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them on the day of the wrath of the LORD. In the fire of his jealousy, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full and sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth." [Zep 1:18 ESV]
""Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD, "for the day when I rise up to seize the prey. For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed." [Zep 3:8 ESV]
So even though Revelation does not give us much detail about the actual battle, Zephaniah is pretty "play by play" about the whole thing.  Zep 3 also has a judgment scene, following the battle, that I think is the sheep and goat judgment.  So here is the question...if Jesus is going to wipe out "all the inhabitants of the earth", HOW can the sheep and goat judgment be a judgment only of living people?  There won't be any, according to this.  Maybe...these verses from Zephaniah are about the post-Millennial battle, not long after which the old heaven and old earth pass away.  If that's it, I need to come back and delete this confusing speculation.

In vs 19, the combatants are in battle formation.  
In vs 20, the beast was captured.  Done deal, no details.
This beast is the antichrist, because the description continues to include the false prophet.  Ahh...there goes that theory.  In this verse, the false prophet is singular masculine.  The false prophet is male.  Need to go back and make a note on that.  Took all the way to here to figure out that was wrong.  I don't think it changes my theory about what Babylon represents.  I still think it is the combination of sex and religion.  If the false prophet is not female, though, then we must see the woman on the scarlet beast as female because the false religion lures with sex.  She is not symbolic of the false prophet himself, but of the "strategy" used first by Balaam, and right on through to the false prophet and the beast in Revelation.  Might need to re-read 17 and 18 with this insight...

This last verse:
"And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh." [Rev 19:21 ESV]
Everyone in that assembled army was most certainly killed.  These do not, in my opinion, constitute "a full and sudden end...of all the inhabitants of the earth".  Surely the Jews who have survived to here will not die.  They certainly will not be fighting for the other side.  Maybe we view Zephaniah as including all the remaining lost of the earth in his prophecy.  Maybe from his perspective, that was a total loss of all remaining humanity.  But we know that after that, in the last part of 3, he describes the Millennial.  He had to know, then, that only "non-Israel" was going to be wiped out.

Previous notes....vss 11-21
In vs 11, the groom appears, mounted on a white horse, splendorous, and named "The Word of God".  The armies of heaven follow after him, in linen, and on white horses also.  King of Kings and Lord of Lords is written on his robe and on his thigh.  Vs 14 says the army was clothed in fine linen....so was the bride in vs. 8.  Who all comprises this army?  MSB describes exactly that in the note on vs 14.  The army includes the church, Tribulation saints, OT believers, and even angels.  There are many add'l references that verify the inclusion of these groups.  They are not specified or implied in the wording of vs 14.  

A angel standing in the sun calls all the birds to a feast of their own.  They will eat the flesh of dead kings, slaves, mighty men, and so on.  Those killed at Armageddon.  The church is coming with Christ to this battle, after which the Millennial begins.  The beast and the false prophet are captured in this battle, and thrown alive into the lake of fire.  Not the pit, the lake.  The beast is Antichrist, a man.  Alive in hell.  Isn't the false prophet also a man?  Or is the false prophet pure demon?

In any case, the army arrayed to battle the Lamb is wiped out completely.  They all die but for the two captives, and the carrion birds gorge themselves on the flesh of kings.

​

​

20
2022 - As 19 ended both the Antichrist and his false prophet, both men, have been thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.  The way it is worded, being thrown in there alive is much worse than dieing first and then getting thrown in.  But that is conjecture, and I cannot think why it would be.

Vs 1 - Wonder if this is the same angel that unlocked in at the fifth trumpet and let the locusts - and who knows how many others - out into the world.  Perhaps this is the whole job of this angel.  A heavenly jailer.  It is interesting that in vs 4, it doesn't just say that the door was locked back.  That might not keep Satan in.  But it was sealed.  As in the seal of God was put on the door that even Satan could not overcome it.  This means, further, that it is God who releases him at the end of the Millennial.  

The dragon is seized, and the dragon is confined in the bottomless pit.  So he was not at the battle.  The battle was the Antichrist and his false prophet.  Perhaps the image was there also.  But not the dragon himself.  He is now bound with chains, thrown into the pit, and the pit sealed for a thousand years.  No Satanic deception for 1000 years.  What angel was given the job of chaining Satan - Lucifer himself - and confining him in that pit???

Thrones, with judges are seen.  Martyrs beheaded for the testimony of Jesus.  Those who remained faithful through the last seven years - or some part of it.  They "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years".  So these are apparently those who died or were martyred during trib and great trib?  MSB agrees on this.  MSB adds that all believers, OT and NT, will also be present and rule and reign.  Makes sense if they are part of the conquering army that defeats the beast.  

2022 - Vs 4, quite a long verse:
"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." [Rev 20:4 ESV]
Thrones plural.  Makes you think of the 24 elders, but they are not mentioned here.  These have authority to judge, but whom will they judge?  I think this is Christ's kingdom, and his judges, who will settle all disputes with a rod of iron for the next thousand years being put into place.  These have authority to judge, but it does not say they begin judging.
The two groups of dead people are resurrected.  We had the rapture, where the dead in Christ arose, and now we have a rapture of...whom?  Martyrs from t/gt, in two groups?  First those martyred during tribulation but before the mark was offered?  These might have been blamed for the seal judgements, and killed as scapegoats, or just out of vengeance against someone, anyone for what was going on.  The other possibility is that these were the martyrs from the OT.  But it could ONLY be them  if they had not been raptured, right?  So we have to choose here between the rapture of all the saved or the rapture only of those in Christ.  If we say it is all martyrs, and that the OT saints were not raptured, then we are saying that only OT martyrs - not all the OT saved - are being resurrected here.  That's a pretty interesting distinction, to raise the martyrs - the ones who physically died for Christ - before raising the rest of the saved from that time.  So based on these considerations, I think only the martyrs coming out of t/gt are in view here.  Martyrs in general
Then it gets even more interesting.  Those who did not take the mark will be resurrected.  So dead people who refused the mark - that means they died AFTER the false prophet instituted the mark, which means those who died in Great Tribulation.  The last 3 1/2 years.  So...were any left alive after Armageddon, or did saved and unsaved alike die at that point?  Are the raptured the only saints EVER allowed to escape the "once to die" clause?  This would make Zephaniah's prophecy of total death on earth - not one person left alive - entirely true.  We must consider this as a possibility.  What mitigates against this view?  Well there's that "opinion" that only the living are judged at the Sheep and Goat judgment.  Where did we get that view?  Hmm...I just spent some time trying to find the specific verse - and I am sure there is one, that talks about the living standing before the throne, and that scripture is pretty certainly the S&G judgment.  But right now, I cannot even find it.  


Then this verse:
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. [Rev 20:5 ESV]
So no unbelievers have been resurrected at this time.  Their souls remain in Sheol, they are likely aware of events (this is me talking, not MSB or BTN), and know that their judgement is near.  

Vs 6 makes it clear that if you are resurrected in the Millennial, whether OT or NT or Tribulation Period, you need not fear the Great White Throne Judgement.  However, there will be some unbelievers in the Millennial period, else there could be no final battle at the end of it.  Those opposing Jesus at that final battle will be "like the sand of the sea" in number.  So many, still not believing.  The second double punishment of the Gentiles?
2022 - Worth a closer look:
"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years." [Rev 20:6 ESV]
What is the second death would be the first question.  There are two other verses that mention it and give us more information about it.  Though both come later in Revelation we will look quickly at them now:
"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." [Rev 20:14 ESV].  This is at teh Great White Throne, later in this same chapter.  The unsaved are resurrected for the Great White Throne judgement.  They are currently buried, in the ocean, in Hades.  In each case, the point is that they died in the past and are still dead. So that was their first death.  Their second death comes when they are judged guilty at the GWT and thrown in the lake of fire.  No one ever comes back from there.  The second death is the final fate of the unsaved.  There are no appeals from here, no later judgment at which to make a case.  This is ETERNAL CONDEMNATION, with no hope of even a second of respite.
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."" [Rev 21:8 ESV]
This verse says the same thing.  
Now.  Who "shares in the first resurrection"?  This comes right after it says that the martyrs came to life and reigned.  Is the same word used for "resurrection" and "came to life"?  Resurrection in vs 6 is translated from the Greek "anastasis".  It means literally "to stand up again".  In vs 4, come to life is the Greek word "zao", which we have seen before.  It means to breathe, to be among the living.  So...the first means to come back from the dead and the second means to be alive.  
I think that unless we want to make things overly complicated, our answer is right in front of us in vs 5:  "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection." [Rev 20:5 ESV].  This is surely looking back no further than the previous verse, where those killed while faithful and saved in t/gt come to life and (resurrected would be interchangeable with came to life in this case, as I read it) rise to reign with Christ for a thousand years.  The first resurrection is not about the rapture.  So we might reasonably ask whether the second death is potential for the raptured?  Of course the answer is no.  The rapture are in Christ's hands, saved from wrath, and who have a place prepared for them by Jesus.  They will not stand before the GWT.  They will stand before the bema - though I really do not like that terminology.  They will observe, both at the Sheep and Goat and at the GWT.

(((Note:  After the verses from Zephaniah, I am really needing a double check on the S&G being a judgment only of the living.  I have built much on this concept and now I cannot find my "proof text" for this position.  Thing is, I know it is in here, I just have to find it!!!))).

Note also, at the end of vs 6 that these "first resurrection" martyrs will be the priests of the Millennial.  This is their reward for faithfulness during t/gt.    Does this tie back to Rev 5, when the Lamb takes the scroll from the hand of God?
"And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation," [Rev 5:9 ESV]
"and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."" [Rev 5:10 ESV]

In verse 7 we jump ahead a full thousand years to the end of the Millennial.  We aren't told about anything that goes on during the reign of Christ on earth.  
For some reason, we are not told why, Satan gets released from his pit after the thousand years.

This verse about Satan's actions when he is released:
"and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea." [Rev 20:8 ESV]
So even though perfect justice has prevailed for a thousand years, Satan is still able to find millions of people who are unhappy enough to try and put an end to perfection.  How can this be, unless man is truly corrupt in his very nature.  And how could there be this many people still available to fight against Jerusalem?  Where did they all come from?
This is a lot of "people".  We saw that God wiped out the entire army of Satan at the Battle of Armageddon.  To understand the numbers in this last battle, I have to interpret that part about wiping out everyone to refer to those who came for the battle.  It says the birds were "overhead", rather than all the birds of the earth.  That's not much to base a position on, but at least it is something.  Those armies left families behind, people behind, kings and governors and mayors behind.  All those left behind - or most all of them - supported the battle against the saints.  Jesus was not expected to arrive and reinforce the Jews who were concentrated in that valley to do battle.  Jesus' arrival was likely resented by the families of the dead.  Then Jesus sets up his own kingdom, his own judges over the whole world, and that rod of iron thing is for real.  He tolerates NO petty theft, no market cornering, no taking advantage of widows and orphans.  If you want to make money, you have to do it fair and square.  Not many want to do it this way.  So over the next thousand years, I can see a lot of resentment growing under the surface.  And if we believe that not ALL people died, lost and saved alike, then people are still having babies.  In a world where crops grow, rain falls, and distribution is according to need, everyone is healthy and productive.  So in a thousand years...50 generations are easily possible.  At 3 kids per family average, the population increases 50% each of those 50 generations.  You wouldn't need all that many survivors to start with to end up with the sands of the sea.
   There is only one problem with this scenario.  If the Sheep and Goat judgment that we saw in teh last chapter sent ALL the goats to:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."" [Mat 25:46 ESV]...who was it that got judged?  How did those survivors not get judged here?  If that whole army was wiped out dead AND we are right about the sheep and goat being a judgment of living persons only (which I really really have to nail down again, though I KNOW that is how it is), then who was there to be judged?  ONLY the Jews who returned to Israel during t/gt and survived until the end.  Besides the dead army of the beast, and our "surmised" survivors in the rest of the world - which we need to stay alive and not go immediately to hell so they can produce the last army of Satan a thousand years later - the only other people on the planet are returned Jews.  So...to make that work, we have to say that while God calls all the descendants of Abraham home to Israel during t/gt - which is possible since Antichrist would have persecuted them for their parentage, not their dedication to God in the same way that Hitler killed Jews loyal to the party right along with all the rest - he does not necessarily save them all.  We might well say - and I lean strongly this way - that the Millennial Kingdom in Israel is ONLY for the Jews.  It is THE FULFILLMENT of the unconditional promises to Abraham and his descendants.  So ONLY the Jews who's works prove they are sheep of the shepherd, and not goats of the deceiver, get past the Sheep and Goat judgment.  
   I have never heard this explained this way before.  It is the only way I can make it work.
   
Vss 9, 10 are pretty succinct.  This monstrous army comes to surround Jerusalem.  Maybe it surrounds all Israel.  But there is no battle.  Instead, there is a "sign from heaven".  Fire comes down, as on Elijah's altar, and consumes everything and everyone.  I can see THIS fire killing every person outside the Millennial Kingdom on the entire earth dying in this fire.  Man, woman and child.  This is the end.  

Vs 11:
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them." [Rev 20:11 ESV]
I think this is literal.  I think the nation of Israel will remain, and nothing else.  The sky won't be the same.  The earth will end at the border of Israel.  The earth as we know it will be forever gone when the fires go out.  

This is the FINAL judgment.  There won't be any more chances for anyone.  No more rewards for anyone.  Note in vs 12 that "the dead were judged by what they had done".  The book of life is also opened here.  So the saved can be verified?  Or to prove that no one being judged is in that book?  It said back at the sheep and goat - in Matthew, that those who go into the Millennial live forever and ever.  So they will not be judged here.  Everyone else is dead, and the dead stand for judgement.  Death, and Hades, and the Sea all give up their dead.  Not going to try and figure these three out.  For tonight, I am going with "absolutely every unsaved person who has ever died, and not been previously judged somewhere".  

The big question here is, are there any saved people standing before this throne?  Those resurrected from t/gt to enter the Millennial are not at risk here.  This judgment will not find any of them guilty.  The second death is no worry for them.  It is a worry for the lost.

What about the OT saints?  Are they here, just now resurrected?  Adam, Noah, Daniel and Job.  Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?  Have they waited all this out in Abraham's bosom but must now stand before the GWT and be judged?  Well...once to die and after this the judgment.  So either they were raptured and judged at the bema seat, they were resurrected for the Sheep and Goat pre-Millennial and reigned in the Millennial with Christ, though what a lot of them that would have been, and we have no direct mention of such a thing, OR they are resurrected here, at the GWT, and judged last of all, and with the lake of fire open wide before them and millions - no billions - thrown into it.  

Is verse 15 about these OT saints?
"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." [Rev 20:15 ESV]
Hmm...If there were both kinds, both written in the book and not written in the book, wouldn't it be written more like the Sheep and Goat, which reads this way:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."" [Mat 25:46 ESV]

It seems like it would.  My conclusion then is that the OT saints are not here.  And if they are not, they must also have been raptured...but they are not part of the church.  Raptured, but not dressed in bright linen as the bride.

As of this point, we have also not seen an actual wedding.  Perhaps we saw the supper...but no wedding.  

The earth though, is ended now.  The judging is all done.  ALL the unsaved are in the lake of fire.  Satan and all his angels are in there also.  Somehow, whether we can trace their movements or not, all the saved are now identified and await eternity's beginning.

21
We noted to end Chapter 20 that earth was no more.  What more appropriate than a new heaven and earth to begin 21.  A new creative act of God to restore the earth and the heavens to their pre-fall and perfect state.

2022, Vs 2,
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." [Rev 21:2 ESV]...going back to 19:6-10...In vs 7, it says that the time for the marriage has arrived.  It says the bride is ready.  The angel says blessed are those invited to the supper.  There is no specification as to the identity of the Bride in this verse.  It does not say the church is the bride.  A few verses:
""Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the LORD, "I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown." [Jer 2:2 ESV]
"8 She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the whore." [Jer 3:8 ESV]
Ahh....God divorced Israel, but never Judah...
""Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah," not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD." [Jer 31:31,32 ESV]
"18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. 19 And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy." [Hos 2:18-19 ESV]  Perpetual betrothal, but no marriage.  This looks to be about teh Millennial, rather than post-GWT.
"1 I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! 2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." [2Co 11:1-2 ESV]
Paul makes clear that he is about to stretch a metaphor way beyond what it should be.
So I have always heard that the church is the bride of Christ.  I cannot really find that in so many words.  Is it right?  If so, how do we get there?
In the first verse above we have a city prepared "as a bride".  Doesn't say "Jerusalem, the bride prepared for her husband".  The word "as" is really there.  It identifies this picture as metaphor.  The city is made ready for presentation.  The city is not a bride.
In the next verse, Jer 2:2, we see the nation of Israel "as" a bride in her behavior toward God.
In Jer 3:8, God does not divorce a city, but a people.  It specifically says that God divorced Israel for her unfaithfulness.  But He did not divorce her sister Judah.  God with two wives - sisters?  I can't go there...but that's what it says.
From these verses, 31:31, 32, we see that the word is covenant.  As it is worded, what is in view is a covenant to replace the previous covenant.  Therefore, the whole idea of marriage here is symbolic of a commitment unbreakable except for cause of unfaithfulness.  A covenant with sisters is fine, even one as binding as marriage, and requiring specific "divorce" if the covenant is broken.  
So...that says that in the OT, marriage was a metaphor for covenant, and was the relationship of God with Israel and Judah.
Applying that same analysis, with whom does Christ have a covenant?  Certainly we would say with the church.  I prefer to think of the church as the faithful betrothed, at least up to this point in Revelation.  I see no marriage.  I prefer to think of the relationship between Christ and the church as a binding covenant or unbreakable contract.  The bride part is metaphor giving us incite into the depth of the relationship.  Not just a contract, but more akin to a marriage contract.
Furthermore, I don't even think it is saying that about the new Jerusalem.  It is only saying it is prepared for presentation, the dwelling place of theos on earth.

This verse:
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. [Rev 21:3 ESV]  This language ties to Jer 31:33,34.  The promise God makes to dwell with the chosen people is fulfilled only here.  And while this promise is fulfilled to the Jews, note that all the saved in all of history will be here also, included in the fulfillment of the promise.  
2022 - This is perhaps the reason for so much confusion on whether the promises to the Jews and to the church are now combined, or remain separate.  Based on these verses, we can see that they remain separate through the end of the Millennial and through the end of the corrupt earth and heavens, but are combined in eternity.
2022 - This is fulfilment of the OT prophecies where God will dwell with his own and they will be forever, unbreakably his people, and they are forever his God.  These prophecies, it turns out, were NOT about the Millennial but about forever, when Israel - the people of God, and the nations - the people of Christ - become one people, just as Father and Son are one.

Jesus ruled in the Millennial and dwelt on earth, but God himself - that first person of the Trinity - only dwells among men in the New Jerusalem.  Earth has been "un-corrupted" and only those made spotless and pure by the Lamb are present.  God cannot be in the presence of the impure, and so his dwelling among men could not have come before this point.

2022 - Vs 4 gives us a glimpse of true Utopia.  A place where there is never sadness, disappointment, or regret.  And no death.

2022 - Now this verse:
"5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."" [Rev 21:5 ESV]
This refers back to 20:11, and the Great White Throne.  Who's voice is this?  Who sits on the Great White Throne?  Look at how he continues in vs 6:
"6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment." [Rev 21:6 ESV]
He speaks directly to John using the same words we saw of a different one back in 19:9 and discussed at length there.  "kai lego ego".  In that discussion, we learned that it is English, and not Greek that requires a pronoun or noun here.  Someone spoke to John, but we can only figure out who it was from other context.  So what does the text give us?  HE is making all things new.  Gen 1:1 says God created.  Seems like theos is in view.  Then he orders John to write.  In 1:19 it was the Son who told him to write.  So this points to Christos.  But Alpha and Omega, beginning and end?  Doesn't this have to be theos?  Isn't he the only one to use that title?  Well...actually, we only see Alpha and Omega here in the book of Revelation and it is only used here three times.  First in 1:7,8...where it says two things; he is coming with the clouds and every eye will see him.  We know that is Jesus at the second advent.  But in the very next verse, it is the Lord God who says He is Alpha and Omega.  Ahhh...the word for Lord is "kyrios", a title often used to refer to Jesus the Messiah in the NT!  As in 1 Thess 4:16, 17 three times, where kyrios can ONLY mean Jesus.  Then it is used here, in Rev 21:6.  Surely we have to be getting nearly positive that Alpha and Omega refers to Jesus.  And last, in Rev 22:13, the wording is nearly the same.  Then, add the phrase about living water, which is so reminiscent of Jesus' words to the woman at the well...It is Christ the Messiah on this throne.  He is the one who presides at the GWT.  BUT, in view of what we said above about Abraham's seed, and all the nations combined into one people after the Millennial, we might ought to also see the one on the throne as the combined author of both those covenants - the Abrahamic and the New.  It is Jesus, but it is also theos.

Then in vss 7, 8, the final state of all things is laid out.  To the faithful, the conquering, He will be their God, they will be his children.  As promised.  And for the others, the second death, from which none ever returns, served in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur.

Beginning in vs 9, John is again carried away in the Spirit to behold the Bride.  This is the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven.  Hmm...how is this the church?  MSB just says that the holy city takes on the character of its inhabitants, the redeemed.  The chapter gives a vivid description of the city.
2022 - This is vision.  It is "external to the chronology".  It is again one of the seven angels from the tabernacle that offers the vision.  This angel will point out "The Bride, the wife of the Lamb".  John is not then shown a bunch of people in bright white linen robes, but a city coming down from heaven.  We already saw this within the chronology earlier in this chapter, in vs 2.  We concluded there that the "bride" reference was metaphor.  Now, in vs 10, we are within a symbolic vision.  Again, NOT a bride in the sense we usually think of a bride.  The city is described in vss 10-21.  This is the city we always call heaven.  It is not heaven.  It came down FROM heaven.  This is the new Jerusalem, on the new earth.  The earth as it was at Adam's creation, but with a city built by God on it.  And now seas.

In vs 15, the city is measured with a measuring rod.  It is not John who does the measuring, but the angel speaking with him.  Only Ezekiel's temple is measured by a man in the OT, and I think John measured the Tribulation temple.  Personally, I think they are the same temple.  That's why  they are the only two measured by man.

These gates are never shut.  They needn't be, because nothing impure remains.

2022 - In vs 22, we get this:
"22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb." [Rev 21:22 ESV]
If you look at the word order in the Greek, it is very confusing as to how these words ought to be put together.  BUT, that is only because I do not speak ancient Greek.  I suspect that the cases of the words identify which are subject nouns and which predicate.  So accepting the sentence as presented, we see that the phrase Lord God uses the same word "kyrios" as we saw earlier.  Jesus is the temple of the new Jerusalem.  BUT, it also says "the Almighty and the Lamb".  I think these titles are intentionally linked together so that BOTH of them refer to kyrios.  This again says that the Father and the Son are one in the New Jerusalem, their persons no longer requiring that they act in different roles for the purpose or redeeming mankind, but in only one.  And where is the Spirit in all this?  It was given to all the saved, to indwell.  Perhaps it is still there, and so makes the saved also one with the Father and with the Son.  At this point, the Son is in the Father, and the Father in the Son, and we are in the Son and therefore in the Father also.  All that confusing language from the gospel of John is perhaps unraveled for us here.

2022 - These verses:
"24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it," [Rev 21:24 ESV]
There will still be Kings.  There will still be nations.  There will still be earth, but a far better earth.  These Kings will be kings because that will be their reward for their service to God.  These will have received crowns at the bema...perhaps...or maybe they are those who were given thrones in Rev 20:4 at the sheep and goat?  And from this point forward, there will only be saved people, and sin has no more power to corrupt.

22
2022 - We are still in the vision, still symbolic, still outside the timeline.

Description of the New City continues.  Geography rather than architecture this time.  This verse:
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb [Rev 22:1 ESV]
Worded as if there is only one throne, that of God AND the Lamb.  Having completed their separate work, and with only pure, uncorrupt man and matter remaining, there is no longer a need for a go between.  God Himself will be present with mankind, and angels, and earth.  The God that operated in three persons to this point, does no longer.  They are now the same.  (This also is just me.  Didn't see this in MSB.  MSB makes not note of it at all.  I suspect that the Greek makes it clear there are still two thrones, and it is only the translation that causes me to see it this way.)

Same sort of phrase is repeated in vs 3.  "...the throne of God and of the Lamb".  Not "the thrones of God and the Lamb".  vs 23 of Chapter 21 is the last place that seems to separate the Father and the Son.

2022 - From the above, it looks like I picked up on the disappearing distinction between the Father and the Son previously.  But this time through, I am seeing it repeated over and over, as if to make sure we don't miss it.  In vs. 1, the words are theos and arnion.  Both have genitive case, and both are singular.  Throne is also singular.  Furthermore, all are genitive case, so we know they all belong together.  One throne, two occupants, Father and Son.  Two Covenants, Abrahamic and New.

2022 - Vs 6
Here we seem to exit the vision of the future, and go all the way back to Chapter one, with one like the Son of Man talking directly to John.  

And again this verse:
17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. [Rev 22:17 ESV]
The Spirit and the Bride, still together, unseparated, just as they were during the church age on earth.  The earnest does not get returned to the one who paid it.  It becomes incorporated into the final payment.  So while Jesus and God are now one again, the Spirit still indwells each believer, each resident of the new heaven and the new earth.  

2022 - I have not added much this year to the Chapter 22 notes.  I don't think that's because there is little here, but because I have burned up all my gas over the last several days.  That's just all I have for now.